How Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages • Hacker News Board

Re: How Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

#151

Post by jiggy2011 » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 7:11 AM UTC

grey-area wrote: post #149

bigiain wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That implication is exactly what Colin provides with my tarsnap backups. He (or Amazon) can respond to legal requests with my strongly encrypted data, and Neither Colin/tarsnap nor Amazon can provide them with my private keys. You can design your systems this way. It appears you're allowed under US law. It seems there's companies jumping through hoops on behalf of the NSA and/or FBI to build systems that _dont_ provi…

Note that Colin _could_ conspire with / be compelled by the NSA to attempt to convince me to "upgrade" my local tarsnap code with a backdoored version Far more likely is that they'd oblige him to upgrade everyone's tarsnap with a backdoored version, just in case.

Can they do that? I assume there is a difference in law between the somewhat passive act of giving access to information already stored and forcing somebody to actively perform some action.

For example if you have private CCTV on your premises, a court can demand access to whatever footage they have captured but I don't think that they can force you to install hidden cameras on your property.

Isn't stuff like that usually done as part of a bargain, like having somebody wear a wire in exchange for not going to jail.

Re: How Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

#152

Post by skriticos2 » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 7:54 AM UTC

znowi wrote: post #25

devindotcom wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting conflict to me is that Google et al don't appear to be fighting this battle. When it comes to other things, they are in the streets, funding lobbyists, building protest websites, and so on. But this, which threatens their entire business model (essentially trust-based), they haven't made a peep about. It may just be a gag order thing, sure. But with the level of access required for stuff like this, I…

The peculiar part for me with Google is that they seem to be somehow immune from all the revelations. People keep stand by it and get annoyed when reminded of their wrong-doings. I suspect at this point, they're not much different than Microsoft. But the "don't be evil" brand is still strong in the mind of many.

They still realease a lot of Open Source software, support open source projects (Google summer of code) and publish somewhat sensible standards like SPDY. The last time Microsoft published a standard it used lobby power to push it through ISO fast track. It's horribly bloated and it was quite obvious that they only wanted to avoid to seem unsustanable as data format provider. If Google turns evil, we have a big mess, but in the end we have also won much. Microsoft does not have much to show except for market opression and closed down products. They are still very, very far away from each other.

Re: How Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

#153

Post by hnha » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 8:05 AM UTC

znowi wrote: post #20

Skype, which was bought by Microsoft in October 2011, worked with intelligence agencies last year to allow Prism to collect video of conversations as well as audio This is pretty scary. When you talk about emails, it's sort of "impersonal". But collecting audio and video data from your casual chats on Skype is a fucking break in.

there is nothing impersonal about my personal mails.

Re: How Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

#154

Post by gtirloni » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 1:01 PM UTC

bigiain wrote: post #123

sentenza wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be just a single data point, but PRISM is the primary cause of my slow but persistent move away from Google services. Oh, btw, I know many people over here in Europe who never use any Google service other than search out of general mistrust towards the company. Might not help them much, as the search history combined with the IP-address logs of all the G+ buttons is already a pretty encompassing profile, but…

Not just G+ buttons either. How many websites these days _arent_ running Google Analytics?

For me, all of them. Thanks to Ghostery.

Re: How Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

#155

Post by grey-area » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 3:23 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #151

grey-area wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that Colin _could_ conspire with / be compelled by the NSA to attempt to convince me to "upgrade" my local tarsnap code with a backdoored version Far more likely is that they'd oblige him to upgrade everyone's tarsnap with a backdoored version, just in case.

Can they do that? I assume there is a difference in law between the somewhat passive act of giving access to information already stored and forcing somebody to actively perform some action. For example if you have private CCTV on your premises, a court can demand access to whatever footage they have captured but I don't think that they can force you to install hidden cameras on your property. Isn't stuff like that us…

They persuaded a lot of big companies to collaborate actively (i.e. Microsoft, Blackberry etc subverting crypto). Personally I don't see it as legal or ethical, and would resist it, but a large government can bring a lot of pressure to bear. So if tarsnap got big enough to be a problem, then perhaps we'd find out.

Re: How Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

#156

Post by throwawaykf » Sat, Jul 13, 2013, 9:15 AM UTC

ceph_ wrote: post #135

HSO wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my first link on bing: http://www.prweb.com/releases/class-action-lawsuit/google-ns...

Wow, almost all of the results of 'google nsa lawsuit' on bing are negative against google. http://www.bing.com/search?q=google+nsa+lawsuit 1) Maryland Attorney Mike Slocumb Comments on Google Privacy Class Action Lawsuit and NSA Surveillance Case (negative) 2) Google surveillance far surpasses the NSA, author says - CBS News (negative) 3) EPIC files FOIA request over reported Google, NSA partnership ... (negative) 4…

And almost none of the results of 'google nsa lawsuit' on google are negative about google: http://www.google.com/search?q=google+nsa+lawsuit

Everything is a filter bubble.

Re: How Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

#157

Post by eps » Sat, Jul 13, 2013, 12:51 PM UTC

gtirloni wrote: post #154

bigiain wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just G+ buttons either. How many websites these days _arent_ running Google Analytics?

For me, all of them. Thanks to Ghostery.

Ghostery is just another form of an analytics platform. I hope you realize that.

Re: How Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

#158

Post by wslh » Sat, Jul 13, 2013, 12:58 PM UTC

devindotcom wrote: post #13

pvnick wrote: post #2

Microsoft's June 7th statement: "We provide customer data only when we receive a legally binding order or subpoena to do so, and never on a voluntary basis. In addition we only ever comply with orders for requests about specific accounts or identifiers. If the government has a broader voluntary national security program to gather customer data we don’t participate in it." One down, several to go. If I were Google/Fac…

The interesting conflict to me is that Google et al don't appear to be fighting this battle. When it comes to other things, they are in the streets, funding lobbyists, building protest websites, and so on. But this, which threatens their entire business model (essentially trust-based), they haven't made a peep about. It may just be a gag order thing, sure. But with the level of access required for stuff like this, I…

It can't have been less than a couple dozen at least. And none of them raised the issue or let someone know, a journalist for instance, or publicly raised the question?

This speaks about the lowest level of ethics. Many things are more important than the shareholders Once I was working for the tax agency of my country and they wanted to hide tax information for specific politicians (that obviously were involved in corruption cases). I loudly spoke against the project and was ready to speak about it to the press. The project was cancelled at the end.

Re: How Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

#159

Post by nikster » Sat, Jul 13, 2013, 3:14 PM UTC

znowi wrote: post #25

devindotcom wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The interesting conflict to me is that Google et al don't appear to be fighting this battle. When it comes to other things, they are in the streets, funding lobbyists, building protest websites, and so on. But this, which threatens their entire business model (essentially trust-based), they haven't made a peep about. It may just be a gag order thing, sure. But with the level of access required for stuff like this, I…

The peculiar part for me with Google is that they seem to be somehow immune from all the revelations. People keep stand by it and get annoyed when reminded of their wrong-doings. I suspect at this point, they're not much different than Microsoft. But the "don't be evil" brand is still strong in the mind of many.

What surprises me is that for example Apple and Google don't simply ignore the gag orders, and just release what and how much they have handed over.

Google/Apple are not going to get shut down over this. They can afford lawsuits and penalties. So why not take a stand? Are they really that timid? Or is what they would reveal actually so grim they just sit by and hope they're somehow going to escape this?

This is the time to put cost/benefit analysis aside and take a stand. Show the world what kind of company you are. So far, its all whimps and pushovers.

Re: How Microsoft handed the NSA access to encrypted messages

#160

Post by nikster » Sat, Jul 13, 2013, 3:16 PM UTC

throwawaykf wrote: post #156

ceph_ wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, almost all of the results of 'google nsa lawsuit' on bing are negative against google. http://www.bing.com/search?q=google+nsa+lawsuit 1) Maryland Attorney Mike Slocumb Comments on Google Privacy Class Action Lawsuit and NSA Surveillance Case (negative) 2) Google surveillance far surpasses the NSA, author says - CBS News (negative) 3) EPIC files FOIA request over reported Google, NSA partnership ... (negative) 4…

And almost none of the results of 'google nsa lawsuit' on google are negative about google: http://www.google.com/search?q=google+nsa+lawsuit Everything is a filter bubble.

Move along and keep on shopping. Nothing to see here.