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I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

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Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#171

Post by pbhjpbhj »

robot_friend wrote: post #14

I am female with a hybrid background in UI design and front-end dev. A while back I created a fake linkedin profile identical to mine except with a male name. Even though it has no profile picture and no contacts, the fake profile gets more recruiter messages than I do, and for more technical positions (I get ones for design, he gets ones for engineering).

Perhaps the recruiters have some negative real-life information that discounts your actual profile but no such negative information against your fake one. Your evidence doesn't show sex discrimination.

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#172

Post by anon808 »

speeder wrote: post #132
nmcfarl wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you need men to change their attitudes - the majority of people at the top of the food chain are male, and they’re the ones that make the hiring decisions. But you are right - it’s not an exclusively male problem, and woman are perfectly capable of discriminating against other women, and do, frequently, and often unconsciously. In the end society as a whole needs to change how it views women, and how it act…

When you got your resume thrown out because you have a female sounding name, it has NOTHING to do with higher ups, whoever threw the resume out was HR, and thus very probably a woman. A problem might exist, but targeting the wrong target won't fix it, stop blaming the "higher ups" for decisions (conscious or not) taken by the ones that took those decisions. I very much doubt there is a company where the CEO made a ex…

Or the resume wasn't thrown out by the HR person. It was passed along to the department hiring manager, which is what actually happens 100% of the times where the resume fits the job description, and it was the department hiring manager who then threw it out.

But I can see your point, let's just assume it was the HR person that threw out the resume. And since we're in assumption land, let's assume the HR person was a woman.

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#173

Post by jessriedel »

sp332 wrote: post #104
jessriedel wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first third of the story leads with all this talk about how he had all the qualifications and shouldn't have any trouble finding a job. Then a couple paragraphs about how hard it was to find, and how this was so surprising. Then a couple of paragraphs on how "Kim" could be assumed female. And then a complete turn around when he added "Mr". This was supposed to be data, in the sense that it was supposed to provide…

The article gives you a mental tool that you can apply as you like to various situations that you encounter. It's like learning a type of logical fallacy. You wouldn't disregard an article that described what a "false dilemma" is as "having no data".

First, what is the tool? (This is an honest question.)

Second, my complaint wasn't that it had no data, my complaint was that it was essentially just data, and that this data was much noisier than some good, widely available data. Wrapping crappy data in an engaging story that stick in the mind of the reader, when better data exists, is doing the reader a disservice.

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#174

Post by ukapu »

larrys wrote: post #111
alanctgardner2 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Happily married and all of that but men are visual What does that even mean?

It's like saying "I just bought a car and I"m happy with it but I still like to look at other cars at the car show or in the showroom because it makes me feel good".

This may come as a shock to you, but women are not cars.

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#175

Post by mcguire »

sliverstorm wrote: post #76
bitops wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Men can get away with making sexist jokes (or even not-jokes) around other men. That's an important observation and plays a huge role in perpetuating sexism and gender discrimination. It continues to exist because guys let other guys get away with it. If you speak up and indicate that you're not okay with it, behaviors and attitudes may change. It's not easy and it requires courage. But it's necessary to really mak…

Maybe it isn't a problem that needs fixing? Maybe making work another place of constant judgement and time under the PC microscope would not be a net positive? Remember there's a difference between bare-faced misogyny and garden variety politically incorrectness.

Maybe it would be better if the women stayed home and did whatever it is that they do there?

Unfortunately, the economy over the last 40 years has demonstrated that that option is sub-optimal.

Or did you mean by "time under the PC microscope" and "garden variety politically incorrectness" that you are ok if other people are uncomfortable, as long as you aren't?

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#176

Post by orff »

drpgq wrote: post #82
cliveowen wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a simple way to fix it. Namely providing a means to submit your resume that anonymizes name, gender, age and anything that could bias the reviewer's assessment. The best HR departments already do that, at least that's the hope.

I moved to Germany to work from Canada after finishing grad school and was amazed to find applicants put pictures on resumes there. Ironically later we made an attractiveness estimator and I suggested we use it to screen somebody applying for a secretary position (I was only joking and actually more pointing out the ridiculousness of having photos on resumes).

... and not only pictures. it is standard to include your birthday and nationality in your CV in Germany.

And sometimes, the early career applicants adds the employers of their PARENTS in their CVs !!!

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#177

Post by loginalready »

crazygringo wrote: post #3

That's really, really sad. And the worst part is, it's surely conscious on nobody's part. There have even been studies showing this effect. What's even sadder is that there's no obvious or easy way to fix it.

It's really really sad that once again denial is the top comment on HN with the truth starting us in the face.

How on earth is this kind of discrimination not conscious, when the only difference in a written resume is the assumption that the person is female?

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#178

Post by anaptdemise »

pessimizer wrote: post #164
anaptdemise wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Schools have almost gone through this stage and fully gone over to mixed classrooms. To their detriment. As a product of both coed and all boys private schools, there is a stark difference in teaching and disceplin in single sex schools that research shows improves outcomes. Hit http://scholar.google.com/ with "single sex education." There is a huge discrepancy in male performance especially that most teachers admi…

>if you start giving men maternity leave in the same way as women I agree. >Normal banter between men about women kept on the "acceptable in a sitcom" when not directed at any specific women, in my view is not sexual harassment, but clearly some people disagree with that. I definitely disagree with that at work. If you want to discuss your sexuality, comment on people's body parts, or articulate your unified theory o…

> allow women (and men) to get through it without having to constantly bite their tongues or else be seen as the problem

Right. Bite my tongue and put on the kid gloves. Wouldn't want to discuss last nights episode of Game of Thrones in the break room, less be seen as a sexist jerk. People do have friends at work, and normal human interactions do take place there.

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#179

Post by bitops »

sliverstorm wrote: post #91
dominotw wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice observation. One of my colleague got a stern warning for using the word dick ( 'dont be a dick' kind of way) around female colleagues, because two women sitting behind him complained to management about it. I am sure he is not discriminatory, biased or misogynistic. I guess it wise to think about what you are saying and not say stuff like 'fuck off', 'stop bitching' which may be construed as inappropriate.

I can't claim it is my own observation. I got it from a feminist talking about how maybe the reason men are resisting women's ingress into male-dominated professions is because when women find the traditionally male workplace environment unsatisfactory, they expect the environment to change to suit them.

> they expect the environment to change to suit them.

It may not be your intention, but I get the sense that you feel this is unreasonable?

As a thought experiment, consider what you'd say if we were having this discussion around racism. Do you consider it unfair for black people (or any non-white racial group) to expect society to change due the discrimination they've experienced?

Imagine we have an office staffed exclusively by white people. Then imagine a black person joins. After a while, they hear a racist comment, not overtly racist, but insensitive and potentially hurtful. If the black person complains about this comment, would we feel it okay to say "oh come on, you're just overly sensitive"?

Re: I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume

#180

Post by JulianMorrison »

crazygringo wrote: post #3

That's really, really sad. And the worst part is, it's surely conscious on nobody's part. There have even been studies showing this effect. What's even sadder is that there's no obvious or easy way to fix it.

There absolutely is an easy, obvious way to fix it. It's just something that gives men the screaming meemies.

Quotas.

Don't give me guff about "the best person for the job". You've been picking the best man for the job.

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