Estonian E-Voting Source Code Made Public • Hacker News Board

Re: Estonian E-Voting Source Code Made Public

#71

Post by eli » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:19 PM UTC

oceanstone wrote: post #54

arnarbi wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Secrecy of votes is the foundation of the system. Just imagine how many people would be willing to sell their vote if they could prove it to a third party.

Vote selling is a form of Voting Fraud. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_selling Secret ballots make it even easier to pull off.

Huh? Selling your vote is extremely difficult with a closed ballot and extremely easy with an open ballot.

Do you mean that the vote selling is offset by ending other forms of voting fraud? Other forms of voting fraud are incredibly rare.

Re: Estonian E-Voting Source Code Made Public

#72

Post by yaddayadda » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:22 PM UTC

orf wrote: post #60

oneandoneis2 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, E-voting could revolutionalize politics. Right now, we have to have presidents, prime ministers, even kings; making all the big decisions for us because that was the only practical way. E-voting makes it possible for the population to be consulted on any major decision. This, IMHO, is the reason it's so unpopular amongst politicians. Right now in the UK, for instance, MPs get to vote on their own salary inc…

Consulting everyone on every major decision isn't the best way to make decisions (who says the majority is right?). Most people wouldn't understand the issues they are voting on and would be heavily swayed by the media.

Once there is an easy online system in place then alternatives to an all or nothing vote could be established. For example, you may vote for a representative every X years and this representative would vote for you when you opted not to. Over the course of X years there are hundreds of votes, but you are passionate about 20 of them. You could directly cast a vote on those 20 issues, but your representative would cast votes, as a proxy, for the rest of the issues.

Re: Estonian E-Voting Source Code Made Public

#73

Post by eli » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:24 PM UTC

yaddayadda wrote: post #70

vvllddrr wrote: post #64

The title is wrong (the article isn't, necessarily). The license, https://github.com/vvk-ehk/evalimine/blob/master/LICENSE , is non-free/open source.

The "Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License" is an "open source" license. The source code itself is "open" and can be redistributed for free (beer not speech). But it is disappointing that they have opted to prohibit derivatives, and it makes their posting of the code to GitHub an interesting choice.

A pull request would technically be violating the license, no?

Re: Estonian E-Voting Source Code Made Public

#74

Post by eli » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:27 PM UTC

oneandoneis2 wrote: post #56

technimad wrote: post #4

No matter how open the code is. It is extremly hard, if not impossible, to ensure this code is running on the actual systems. E-voting sounds intersting in theory, but in practice it is basically not worth the trouble. It is way more complex than a regular system with ballots and the only gain is that the results can be published sooner.

Actually, E-voting could revolutionalize politics. Right now, we have to have presidents, prime ministers, even kings; making all the big decisions for us because that was the only practical way. E-voting makes it possible for the population to be consulted on any major decision. This, IMHO, is the reason it's so unpopular amongst politicians. Right now in the UK, for instance, MPs get to vote on their own salary inc…

I do not think this is a good idea at all. Take a look at California where voters are constantly being asked to vote on tax increases and ballot initiatives. It's hard to argue that the state is better off for it.

You could easily make a rule that MPs can't raise their own salary without changing the fundamentals of a representative democracy.

Re: Estonian E-Voting Source Code Made Public

#75

Post by skrebbel » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:33 PM UTC

oellegaard wrote: post #36

This seems like a good contract to the typical (american-inspired) secrecy around governmental systems. I would also like to believe open source makes software more secure, but I'm not sure if there is any research that confirms it. Oh, and cool its made in python and not some enterprise java or .NET :)

We're getting off topic, but you do know that it's perfectly possible to write decent Java or C# without it being "enterprise", right? (whatever that means)

I'm starting to get sick of this "ruby/python/nodejs = cool, java/.net = slow bloated enterprise crap for men with suits" attitude that keeps reappearing here on HN.

Whether your work environment is cool, whether your code is decent and snappy, all that has very little to do with your programming language choice. Admittedly, if you compare modern Ruby to VB6 you might conclude that VB sucks, but that's an unfair comparison since the technologies are a decade apart. It's like saying Python rocks because you hate COBOL.

You can work at a scrappy startup and code lean C#, and you can work at a bureaucratic departmentalized hell and code AbstractProxyProviderFactoryProviders in Python.

And, yes, you can even work at a bureaucratic departmentalized hell and code decent Python. Or Java. Or C#. Or Ruby.

Re: Estonian E-Voting Source Code Made Public

#76

Post by Fargren » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

oceanstone wrote: post #55

omh wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of other cases as well. What about someone who bribes people to vote for them, and can check up on it? Or if your boss tells you who to vote for and threatens to fire you otherwise?

These are examples of Voting Fraud. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_selling Secret ballots make it easier to pull off.

Secret ballots make it easier to pull off.

How so?

Re: Estonian E-Voting Source Code Made Public

#77

Post by skrebbel » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:37 PM UTC

vvllddrr wrote: post #64

The title is wrong (the article isn't, necessarily). The license, https://github.com/vvk-ehk/evalimine/blob/master/LICENSE , is non-free/open source.

The source is clearly open. I'm looking at it right now.

That it doesn't match Stallmans definition of "free" doesn't mean that it's not open source.

Re: Estonian E-Voting Source Code Made Public

#78

Post by Fargren » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

yaddayadda wrote: post #72

orf wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consulting everyone on every major decision isn't the best way to make decisions (who says the majority is right?). Most people wouldn't understand the issues they are voting on and would be heavily swayed by the media.

Once there is an easy online system in place then alternatives to an all or nothing vote could be established. For example, you may vote for a representative every X years and this representative would vote for you when you opted not to. Over the course of X years there are hundreds of votes, but you are passionate about 20 of them. You could directly cast a vote on those 20 issues, but your representative would cast…

What happens when there's a big decision that heavily affects media interests? They start using their sway on public opinion to make the decision important, and a disproportionate number of people become "passionate" about an issue they don't really know more than they were fed.

There are probably other problems, but I don't think this one is small.

Re: Estonian E-Voting Source Code Made Public

#79

Post by eli » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:41 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #75

oellegaard wrote: post #36

This seems like a good contract to the typical (american-inspired) secrecy around governmental systems. I would also like to believe open source makes software more secure, but I'm not sure if there is any research that confirms it. Oh, and cool its made in python and not some enterprise java or .NET :)

We're getting off topic, but you do know that it's perfectly possible to write decent Java or C# without it being "enterprise", right? (whatever that means) I'm starting to get sick of this "ruby/python/nodejs = cool, java/.net = slow bloated enterprise crap for men with suits" attitude that keeps reappearing here on HN. Whether your work environment is cool, whether your code is decent and snappy, all that has very…

Java Enterprise Edition is the name of an Oracle product. http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javaee/overview/index... It's "enterprise" literally by definition.

Re: Estonian E-Voting Source Code Made Public

#80

Post by eli » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:45 PM UTC

josephlord wrote: post #25

Anderkent wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are theoretical cryptographic systems where each voter can verify that his vote was counted properly, without revealing his vote to anyone. I don't think any have been implemented in practice.

That in itself is a problem because the ability for the voter to prove who they voted for opens them to coercion or bribery. Although doing it online (or by post) opens that risk anyway.

I read a paper on one that allowed up to a randomly selected 50% of votes to be audited and still preserve the secret ballot, but it was so complicated that I barely followed and I definitely don't think I could convince a room full of people it was safe.