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Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

defcon.org

221–230 of 260 posts

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true at all. It entirely depends on what you're building. Build new tools to protect privacy. Advance encryption technology faster. Build new communication software to keep the NSA out. The list is practically infinite and applies to nearly every segment of web / internet / mobile / pc.

> Not true at all. It entirely depends on what you're building. No it doesn't. He's making the same argument terrorists sometimes use to justify their actions. We're not innocent -- that by paying taxes, voting, and otherwise being a member of our society, we're culpable for what that society chooses to do. You don't get to pick and choose what your taxes fund; in large part, that's the whole point of taxation.

You don't get to pick and choose what your taxes fund; in large part, that's the whole point of taxation.

Sort of. I illegally decided to refuse to pay my taxes to the federal government, and instead payed extra taxes to my state government.

http://izbicki.me/blog/why-and-how-im-refusing-to-pay-war-ta...

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is it ethical for universities to reject applicants on the basis of their past/present/future employers being unethical in the selection committee's eyes?

Let's break it down into whether it is ethical to reject based on past/present/future employers. Present employers? Certainly. A number of business schools do this already in the selection process. If you run a gun school and a student comes to you to tell you he is using your training to rob a bank, it would be unethical to teach him. If you are doing training on hacking and you know the student will use this hackin…

I forgot to put the word legal before employers like I did upthread. I'm sorry if that changes your answer and you feel like you wasted your time, because basically what you wrote about illegal employment makes sense to me. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's break it down into whether it is ethical to reject based on past/present/future employers. Present employers? Certainly. A number of business schools do this already in the selection process. If you run a gun school and a student comes to you to tell you he is using your training to rob a bank, it would be unethical to teach him. If you are doing training on hacking and you know the student will use this hackin…

I forgot to put the word legal before employers like I did upthread. I'm sorry if that changes your answer and you feel like you wasted your time, because basically what you wrote about illegal employment makes sense to me. Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Ah, if you put the word 'legal' there, then there is no discussion and nothing to talk about: legal is whatever it says in the law of your country. I'm not in USA, so I have no idea what is or isn't legal, and don't actually care. Legal has nothing to do with ethics and whether something is right or wrong, and doing something that is ethical but illegal is always preferred over something that is legal but unethical. It would always be an ethical imperative to attempt to change an unethical law as well.

Of coarse, sometimes we put our own safety above ethics, and people have differing opinions on whether that is right or not. There is no easy answer there.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this can be in question, if the employees chose their employer freely. How can one seriously oppose a corporate entity if one may not oppose the people who comprise the corporate entity. "Corporations are people, my friend".

If employees choose their employers freely, what are interviews for?

Any chance you could stop asking silly questions? The employees choose freely to apply for work there was (very obviously) what I meant.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's still a difference. When I am in a room, I contribute to the humidity of that room. Now imagine me turning on the faucet or boiling some water.... and then saying "I can't turn them off, it would make no sense, I would contribute to the humidity either way!". I'll just go ahead and say if people can't think at all, so that they only know the difference between "nothing exists" and "everything is the same", th…

Sure, there are degrees of contribution, and direct is clearly more intentioned than indirect, but at the end of the day the beast doesn't care if it's fed willingly or unwillingly, and the vast majority of government funding is involuntary. If it's going to die, it needs to be unable to feed, what people are willing to contribute is irrelevant when its primary income is violently coerced. I have thought long and har…

> was subsequently compelled to become a globally nomadic anarcho capitalist, just to avoid being forced to contribute to what amounts to only a fairly tame by comparison lackey of the US

This is a really interesting story, and I'm going to be giving it a lot of thought. One problem for me is that I do computer science research (I'm a grad student), and I'd like to keep doing something somewhere similar after I graduate (but self-employed), but if you're working on generic low-level computer stuff that can be re-used by everybody ad infinitum, the state will use it. I'm not a Linux kernel developer, for example, but that's a good analogy. I don't see a good way to stop supporting the state without giving up on doing computer science research. I'd appreciate any thoughts.

So, you don't have to pay taxes (except for things like sales tax) to any state? As an American, I think I'd have to renounce my citizenship (they still make you pay taxes when you are overseas), which would probably have a number of negative impacts for me personally, such as possibly making travel difficult.

Overall, I'm not so sure that I agree with your conclusions, but I'm still thinking about it. Yes, I am supporting the state, but not willingly, and not quietly (though I am not vocal about my opposition to the system in my corporeal life, which wouldn't do any good anyway in my work environment, and would probably do much harm). Actually, I'm the victim. Is a Jew working in a munitions factory in Nazi Germany morally obligated to commit suicide rather than try to ride out the war? I would say "no," and I would tentatively say that about the actual situation I am in, for the same reasons.

My bigger concern about supporting the system as I do is that it is self-defeating (of myself). In the limit (i.e., in communism), there is no possibility for productive labor, because 100% of your earnings will be taken by the government and used against you. We are not in that situation. Still, US government action seems to be moving in the direction of making it impossible to start and run small businesses; this is already the case in some sectors, like telecom. When all there are, are large corporate giants under tight regulatory control (which is literally the model adopted by Hitler and Mussolini), we are all worker drones; it would be equally (un)productive for me personally to work a a cashier at Wal-Mart as it would be to be a software engineer. (Because you get paid approximately the same in both cases and true innovation is illegal or impossiblein both cases.) I fear that we are not all that far from that situation.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? Contributing to the knowledge of companies such at Narus is detrimental to the good of humanity.

When is discrimination against an individual based on his or her employer detrimental to the good of humanity?

> When is discrimination against an individual based on his or her employer detrimental to the good of humanity?

Ever since we decided "just following orders" isn't a valid excuse.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How do you decide if it's okay or not to discriminate against employees when the employer in question is legal? What is legal and what is ethical are not necessarily the same thing, hence laws changing to make slavery illegal, etc. Ethical considerations often result in the changing of laws.

So ethical things can be illegal, unethical things can be legal. Would discrimination against the employees of a legal employer in one's own state (country) ever be unethical?

> So ethical things can be illegal, unethical things can be legal.

Ding ding ding. Please keep this in mind at all times.

They not only can be, but unfortunately both often are.

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#228
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By "okay" do you mean "legal" or "ethical" or "moral"? In this case it looks to be completely legal. Regarding federal law, discrimination on the basis of race, sex, national origin, and a few other protected classes is illegal. Discrimination on the basis of other factors is generally acceptable, except where they collide with membership in the protected classes. (For example, a hacker conference cannot require that…

Well, so I mean ethical / moral (is there a distinction?) and the 1980 case involving the Unruh act is a legal embodiment of my own ethics / morals. Thanks for the details, that was enlightening.

I encourage you to look it up for yourself (because you seem to have a lot to learn on the subject of ethics). Here's some starters:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ethical

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/moral#Adjective

"In general usage ethical is used to describe standards of behavior between individuals, while moral or immoral can describe any behavior. You can call lying unethical or immoral, for example, because it involves the behavior of one person and how it affects another, but violating dietary prohibitions in a holy text can only be described as immoral."

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Okay, but he also believes that the income tax is unconstitutional. If he's able to get social security to go away it's likely he'd also eliminate the income tax. X wants A. X also wants B. Therefore, if X gets A, X will also get B. That doesn't work. > Losing social security AND the income tax would likely be a net win for middle aged working folk like my parents. Your analysis seems to be pretty shallow on this,…

A world where Ron Paul gets elected president and/or gets any of his legislation passed is a substantially different world than the one we live in today. Hugely different. If it were possible for the general population to somehow wake up and realize that Social Security is a ponzi scheme and that it's not sustainable long term (not good odds that will happen, mind you) then it's ENTIRELY conceivable that said people…

> A world where Ron Paul gets elected president and/or gets any of his legislation passed is a substantially different world than the one we live in today. Hugely different.

Sure, but the ability to build a minimum winning coalition on eliminating social security is pretty much irrelevant to finding a minimum winning coalition on eliminating income tax.

> If it were possible for the general population to somehow wake up and realize that Social Security is a ponzi scheme and that it's not sustainable long term

Its not possible for them to "wake up and realize" that because its not true, but its certainly possible for them to be convinced of that; indeed, that's a fairly common idea (at least, if you take out the "ponzi scheme" part) now. What is less common is the idea that the best way of dealing with that is to eliminate the program entirely rather than addressing features that make it nonsustainable. [1]

> then it's ENTIRELY conceivable that said people might listen to the "income tax isn't constitutional" argument as well.

Sure, its entirely conceivable that people might listen to that argument. That's a bit different saying that it is likely that he would also be able to eliminate the income tax (there is a big gap between "conceivable" and "likely" and another big gap between "listen to" and "agree with".)

> The political landscape would have to be so incredibly different for social security to go away I can't even really comprehend it.

I have no problem with that description, but that's an argument against any assertion you might make about what would be likely in that case, not an argument for it.

> You can speculate that people wouldn't both abolish social security AND the income tax.

I could, but I haven't. A statement that your claim that a particular outcome is likely is not supported by the argument you have presented for it is not a claim that the outcome is impossible.

> I speculate that such a thing could reasonably happen.

There's a difference between speculating that a thing "could reasonably happen" and asserting, as you did previously, that it is likely.

[1] E.g., http://www.gallup.com/poll/1693/social-security.aspx

Re: Feds, We Need Some Time Apart

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not? Contributing to the knowledge of companies such at Narus is detrimental to the good of humanity.

When is discrimination against an individual based on his or her employer detrimental to the good of humanity?

Lots of reasons. If someone were employed by, say, the Gestapo then it's pretty clear you would want to discriminate against them.
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