Do the right thing, wait to get fired • Hacker News Board

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#31

Post by groby_b » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 1:47 AM UTC

ChuckMcM wrote: post #29

groby_b wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Say what? I've always followed that course of action, and so far - knock on wood - I have not been fired for it. And that spans about 25 years. If what you believe in and what the company believes in are not aligned, you realize that usually well before there's any talk of firing. Just go look for a new job that is more aligned with what you believe in.

Its the challenge of the argument in the large vs the argument in the small. Specifically not everyone has taste. I have met people who follow this mantra and have been fired repeatedly, I know folks like the one in the parent who have operated this way their entire career and have been quite successful at it. Think of it as the "Don't try this at home" admonition. They say that because not everyone will understand b…

Well said. And lest we forget, "doing the right thing" does include compromise. It's not a synonym for "my way or the highway".

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#32

Post by georgemcbay » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 1:50 AM UTC

I've worked at a couple of companies where this was a winning strategy, but I've worked at more companies where attempting this sort of thing on a regular basis will cause problems that are more complex and "worse" than being fired.

At a lot of places you'll have a small group of really talented engineers who would all support the idea of doing "the right thing" even if it flies in the face of established process, and then you have everyone else, particularly people on other teams (sales, QA, project management, general management -- but sometimes also engineers that have grown accustomed to the familiar process, even if it is objectively broken), who will fight you tooth and nail on any deviation from the process simply because "that isn't how we do it here" and the end result is usually that you end up in a situation where you don't get fired outright (if you're recognized as a great developer, it usually takes quite a lot of boat rocking for you to actually get sacked), but things get politically poisonous to the point where even the engineers who support you in theory just want you to stop to ease the tension being created.

As others have mentioned, this advice is very situation and probably serves people much better in companies that are smaller or that at least have a more dynamic company culture. At many companies you'd save everyone (including yourself) a bunch of time and heartache by just quitting when the process becomes unreasonable and entrenched.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#33

Post by Udo » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 1:55 AM UTC

tghw wrote: post #4

At my last company, I earned myself the unofficial job of Employee Advocate because of this philosophy. The company (which I won't mention by name, but can be easily determined) was set up to be a great place for developers to work, and for the most part succeeded in that goal. But as time went on, there were some failings in a few areas, so I decided that I would be the one to push the founders to continue realizing…

Heh, out of curiosity I clicked on your link and for a second there I was thinking "wait a minute, I've seen this guy before... in some documentary" :)

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#34

Post by wissler » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 1:55 AM UTC

If you follow this strategy, then in a fairly decent environment, the first thing that will happen is that you will eventually be promoted or be given more responsibility. This sort of leadership is generally rewarded -- at least at first, within certain limits, and at the lower levels of a company.

This strategy will not work at the higher levels of a largish company, ultimately for reasons that would be politically incorrect to point out.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#35

Post by jamesaguilar » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:04 AM UTC

foobarbazqux wrote: post #30

jamesaguilar wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, man, love me some pedantry. Could be the most productive of all engineering attributes. (Followed by sarcasm T_T.)

The irony here is the truth in your sarcasm. I guess it depends on how you define productive. Would you want a non-pedantic engineer to build you a bridge?

It would be fine because pedantry is not the same as meticulousness. Also, we're talking about a blog post here, not a bridge. For fuck's sake.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#36

Post by dclowd9901 » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:06 AM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #17

I'm not exactly disagreeing, but don't forget the other side too -- that you might not know what you're doing, that you might not understand the good reasons that certain rules are in place, that you might not understand the big picture and that your actions might backfire and/or be counterproductive. Don't forget to be humble too, and realize that what you think is the right thing, isn't always the right thing. Ther…

Exactly. I see it this way: Freeform jazz performers and poets can break all sorts of rules, because they know what the rules are so well that they know which rules make sense, which ones they can bend and which they can outright break.

I would never advocate handing the keys of this philosophy to a young scrappy kid at his first job out of college. More like the seasoned veteran who's seen all sides and knows what it takes to make something (Disclaimer: I am neither of these).

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#37

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:11 AM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#38

Post by Apocryphon » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:12 AM UTC

AVTizzle wrote: post #18

Somewhere about 3/4 of the way down the article, I drew the connection between this line of thinking and what drove Snowden to whisteblow against the NSA's surveillance techniques. Some organizations, it seems, don't reward coloring outside the lines very much at all...

I thought it was quite ironic that this article brings up Google's point of view in the wake of the surveillance scandals.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#39

Post by foobarbazqux » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:16 AM UTC

jamesaguilar wrote: post #35

foobarbazqux wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony here is the truth in your sarcasm. I guess it depends on how you define productive. Would you want a non-pedantic engineer to build you a bridge?

It would be fine because pedantry is not the same as meticulousness. Also, we're talking about a blog post here, not a bridge. For fuck's sake.

It appears that one of my bees has gotten into your bonnet. My humble apologies.

Re: Do the right thing, wait to get fired

#40

Post by tghw » Fri, Jul 12, 2013, 2:24 AM UTC

Udo wrote: post #33

tghw wrote: post #4

At my last company, I earned myself the unofficial job of Employee Advocate because of this philosophy. The company (which I won't mention by name, but can be easily determined) was set up to be a great place for developers to work, and for the most part succeeded in that goal. But as time went on, there were some failings in a few areas, so I decided that I would be the one to push the founders to continue realizing…

Heh, out of curiosity I clicked on your link and for a second there I was thinking "wait a minute, I've seen this guy before... in some documentary" :)

They were filming that?!

All joking aside, I only avoid mentioning the company by name to avoid linking it to any search results. Otherwise, I'm glad to talk about it because I consider it a strong trait of the company.