Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#471

Post by jerf » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 8:44 PM UTC

mncolinlee wrote: post #453

jerf wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my biggest concern with the idea, which I don't see being addressed (checked the entire conversation on this post to date). I don't think having the vote and having the basic income is compatible with each other. Why aren't people going to vote themselves larger basic incomes every year? How can you both have the (modern conception of the) vote, and a basic income at the same time? Attempts to answer this que…

Most of us have a representative system of government, not a purely democratic system. The problem with your thesis is that reality has not presented many examples where deep cuts have not been enacted. Austerity and Social Security cuts are common from elected politicians. The parent idea reminds me of a certain system advocated by Thomas Paine, the famous American revolutionary who came up with a more liberal ideal…

"Austerity and Social Security cuts are common from elected politicians."

Because a non-trivial percentage of the population wants them, whether or not you agree with them. Who's going to vote to receive less money?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#472

Post by brettinlj » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 8:44 PM UTC

Regarding this quote: "I’ve lived in a country that had a period of 'full employment' and now has 14% unemployment, and I don’t see how anyone can be so misanthropic to claim that those 14% of people just got lazier."

I hesitate to take someone's radical economic ideas too seriously if they either can't do math or does not know the econ 101 definition of "full employment".

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#473

Post by antitrust » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 8:45 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #392

btilly wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other problem with "targeted social welfare programs" is that it is very easy to dislike programs that someone else (particularly someone that you don't like) benefits from. A program that you yourself benefit from tends to be less likely to get eroded by future politicians. Compare welfare and social security for a classic example of the difference.

This is my biggest concern with the idea, which I don't see being addressed (checked the entire conversation on this post to date). I don't think having the vote and having the basic income is compatible with each other. Why aren't people going to vote themselves larger basic incomes every year? How can you both have the (modern conception of the) vote, and a basic income at the same time? Attempts to answer this que…

> Why aren't people going to vote themselves larger basic incomes every year?

Congress has that authority over their own salaries, and they haven't abused it.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#474

Post by dllthomas » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 8:45 PM UTC

jerf wrote: post #392

btilly wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other problem with "targeted social welfare programs" is that it is very easy to dislike programs that someone else (particularly someone that you don't like) benefits from. A program that you yourself benefit from tends to be less likely to get eroded by future politicians. Compare welfare and social security for a classic example of the difference.

This is my biggest concern with the idea, which I don't see being addressed (checked the entire conversation on this post to date). I don't think having the vote and having the basic income is compatible with each other. Why aren't people going to vote themselves larger basic incomes every year? How can you both have the (modern conception of the) vote, and a basic income at the same time? Attempts to answer this que…

Put it in a structure where it doesn't take a simple majority vote to raise (real) BI. Let's say the US did it with a constitutional amendment, for instance.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#475

Post by Vivtek » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 8:50 PM UTC

sukuriant wrote: post #335

Vivtek wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go to work as an inner city teacher? Here's an extra 20% in your BI. So ... politicians would suddenly start to pay people to teach in the inner city? Those scoundrels! I can see why you're opposed to this concept.

They already do. Working in an inner-city can substantially reduce your college loans as a teacher, especially if you were getting something higher, like an ED.D. (doctorate in education)

Substantially getting closer to zero assets is not really what I call society valuing education - but that is not your point. My point, though, was this: it turns out it's possible to provide incentives to people without manipulating a BI scheme - you just actually pay people money, like, you know, income from work they're performing. So there is no reason to assume that introduction of a basic income should be opposed because it would introduce unmanageable complexity as well, especially given that it would most certainly eliminate far more complexity.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#476

Post by TeMPOraL » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 8:50 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #350

spdy wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give one example the Google Car. If this car works as advertised millions of jobs will get irreplaceable lost. Cab drivers / Car Manufactures / Truck driver etc.

Maybe. But others will be created (or made simpler), to wit: a teenager can now rent a google car (since he isn't driving it won't cost much more than an adult) which will enable him to do things like wash peoples windows (which is neither technically difficult nor especially dangerous) thus driving down the cost per window washing, enabling more people to enjoy this luxury. Or, assuming you are right and delivery me…

> will enable him to do things like wash peoples windows

Until next year a new type of window will come that doesn't have to be washed.

> there will be more jobs for packaging

There won't. Humans are already being optimized-out of packaging by automated, self-adjusting warehouses and package machines.

> you can instead preorder your groceries

Being produced, packed and delivered by machines.

> It might as well drive to the nearby car cleaner

Which has been automated-out of his work years ago because how this job requires any skills cheap machines don't have right now?

Rest of the things you write about are things people will be able to do instead of working.

The point is, computers are not replacing particular jobs and creating new ones (of similar skill levels). They are replacing whole classes of skills humans have with jobs that have significantly higher requirements and significantly less open positions.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#477

Post by talmand » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 8:51 PM UTC

pjungwir wrote: post #421

talmand wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same thing happens with payroll taxes though, it's not an uncommon practice to tax money as it continuously changes hands. Your employer makes money and is taxed. Some of the resulting money is given to you as payroll and is taxed.

I don't think it's the same thing, because your salary is an expense to the company, so they don't pay taxes on that amount. (Some states/cities do tax corporate revenue as well as corporate profit, but not federal taxes.)

I'm not saying they are taxed on the amount of money they pay you. Well, there is Social Security (US) taxes that they pay but you could argue that's money that should go to the employee anyway if there was no such tax. I'm saying the company makes money that is taxed and then they pay you out of that money in which you are taxed for receiving.

Ok, granted, not all the money that the company has on hand that is paid into your salary is taxed as corporate income, but the idea is valid. I agree not at the same level as taxing profits and then taxing dividends which is essentially the same money.

I'm just going with the notion that it is not uncommon for money to be taxed as it is exchanged from one entity to another.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#478

Post by svachalek » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 8:52 PM UTC

medell wrote: post #432

tokenadult wrote: post #174

I see no one in this active discussion has mentioned yet Charles Murray's book In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare State, http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0844742236 in which Murray goes into detail about how much a program of guaranteed income for everyone would cost in the United States, and some probable effects that would have on everyone's everyday behavior. I read the book a year or two after it was publi…

Great links. Curious, how does the book address the issues of cost of living across regions? As $10k in SF is very different than $10k in St. Louis.

Haven't read it but I'd suggest it shouldn't. Some areas will be more desirable than others and you shouldn't compensate people more because they happen to live somewhere everyone else wants to.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#479

Post by talmand » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 8:52 PM UTC

dllthomas wrote: post #419

talmand wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same thing happens with payroll taxes though, it's not an uncommon practice to tax money as it continuously changes hands. Your employer makes money and is taxed. Some of the resulting money is given to you as payroll and is taxed.

Paying employees is a business expense, so the money is not taxed as corporate profit. Paying dividends (outside of the context of a co-operative where you've pre-committed to paying certain dividends) is not considered a business expense and so the money is taxed as corporate profit before being distributed.

See my reply to pjungwir.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#480

Post by dllthomas » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 8:52 PM UTC

antitrust wrote: post #473

jerf wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my biggest concern with the idea, which I don't see being addressed (checked the entire conversation on this post to date). I don't think having the vote and having the basic income is compatible with each other. Why aren't people going to vote themselves larger basic incomes every year? How can you both have the (modern conception of the) vote, and a basic income at the same time? Attempts to answer this que…

> Why aren't people going to vote themselves larger basic incomes every year? Congress has that authority over their own salaries, and they haven't abused it.

My understanding sit hat Congress has the authority over the salaries of the congress following the next election. If they abuse it too horribly, that's not going to include them.