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Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

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Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> some areas become rich elite enclaves while other areas become basic income ghettos. > This is basically the direction we're already headed in already. A flat basic income would make this better not worse , as there would be more money available serving the needs of people in these poorer areas.

I am inclined to agree with you but I'm not certain. There are some arguments that those living off of BI would form a unique subset of the population and might effectively be ghettoized at least in terms of colocation as opposed to the more economic/social aspect due to their similar needs/means.

> There are some arguments that those living off of BI would form a unique subset of the population and might effectively be ghettoized at least in terms of colocation as opposed to the more economic/social aspect due to their similar needs/means.

The people living primarily off BI (that is "the poor") would likely continue to be segregated, to a certain degree, both physically and socially from those more well-off. But that's not an effect of BI, that's true of the poor now and basically for all of human history.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#212
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

You don't ever do anything - not any one single thing - without a profit motive?

"You don't ever do anything - not any one single thing - without a profit motive?" [Corrected]

There are many non-profit motives, from simple hunger (i.e., when you're hungry you want food, not "profit") to curiosity (e.g., can I build a robot to beat Bill's bot?), from sex-drive (e.g., oh-la-la, she's hot, let me go chat her up and see if there's a "we" in our future) to helping friends and family (e.g., mom's yard has a dead tree in it, and she can't remove it herself, let me get some buddies together to go do it).

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#213

Basic income on top of everything else doesn't make much sense (cost-wise). But if we could trade B.I. for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, and other social progams-- it would probably be more cost efficient as individuals look after their money better than other people do. Here's a video from Milton Friedman (not Tom Friedman!) who is advocating for a negative income tax-- a variation of basic income. http…

I agree, but unfortunately I don't think "basic income and no other welfare programs" is a politically stable policy. No sooner will it have been introduced than politicians will be tempted to screw with it to help a favored constituency.

Go to work as an inner city teacher? Here's an extra 20% in your BI.

Live in an area damaged by a hurricane? We'll bump your BI for a year or two.

I don't think a "simpler" tax code would last much longer for the same reason.

The only way I think it could actually work is if we turned over the whole thing to a bunch of unelected technocrats like the Fed (which might not be a terrible idea since it gives them another lever on economic policy...)

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#214
post #3

It misses the fact that work is fulfilling for (most) people. I've heard talk of the government being the employer of last resort, which has its own problems. But just paying people to breath has problems as well.

I think you're missing the fact that wage labour isn't the only legitimate kind of work. Volunteering is also fulfilling for people. So is parenting and caretaking. So are any number of other activities which are hard work, very rewarding, beneficial to society -- and yet are uncompensated by a wage labour system. Under a UBI, those become more viable activities, so that wage labour no longer becomes the ONLY monetar…

No argument there. I love the idea of creating a pool of money that goes to people who do work that is beneficial to society. Or even just to make art for personal enjoyment.

I'd just like to avoid having the government pay people to, say, drink and party. I think there does need to be some external social pressure / structure to motivate people. Otherwise, you wind up with the same political problems what current welfare programs have.

The best solution I can think of is that the government hires and trains people to do some form of public service if they can't find anything else they would rather do. Limit it to 20 hours per week. If people are really useless, give them a disability wavier. If not, have them plant free or clean up parks.

I've seen the impact of people living on the dole in Britain. It's not good for them or the society. It just abandoning them to lead a mediocre life.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#215
post #202

I see no one in this active discussion has mentioned yet Charles Murray's book In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare State, http://www.amazon.com/books/dp/0844742236 in which Murray goes into detail about how much a program of guaranteed income for everyone would cost in the United States, and some probable effects that would have on everyone's everyday behavior. I read the book a year or two after it was publi…

The other problem with "targeted social welfare programs" is that it is very easy to dislike programs that someone else (particularly someone that you don't like) benefits from. A program that you yourself benefit from tends to be less likely to get eroded by future politicians. Compare welfare and social security for a classic example of the difference.

see welfare vs. disability

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#216

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I've never really heard of anyone proposing a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on

I've heard of lots of people proposing a very small guaranteed payment from the state, as in, bare minimum for subsistence-level food and shelter, on the order of $10,000/year. You would not be able to "party every night for life" on such a pension.

The idea is that it would lubricate the job market, reducing the costs of employment, by taking some of the social benefits-providing responsibility away from employers and giving it to the government, which arguably should own it. This would encourage entrepreneurship (less scary to quit your job and start your own business if you have a better safety net) and also potentially alleviate homelessness and various other social ills.

Those content to never work and do whatever "partying" they can afford on their tiny basic income would also be free to do as they wish, because who wants those people in the workplace anyway? Save the jobs for the people who actually want them, not the people who only need them in order to not starve.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#217
post #59

I think in the end this wouldn't work. It'd play out something like this: A certain percentage of the population would stop working entirely since they no longer need to. (Particularly when politicians push the basic income amount up to placate constituencies) Because workers bow out of the system certain industries lose productive capacity. Maybe we stop producing enough food, or enough fuel. Prices rise (assuming a…

A certain percentage of the population would stop working entirely since they no longer need to. True. The problem is, as things are now, a certain percentage of the population will be forced to stop working as they are made obsolete by increasingly efficient globalization and automation. As that percentage increases, eventually either society will collapse or something fundamental will have to change (such as implem…

What evidence is there of that? Because we've had a slow recovery from the last recession? That couldn't possibly be because of bad policy, no?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#218
post #59

I think in the end this wouldn't work. It'd play out something like this: A certain percentage of the population would stop working entirely since they no longer need to. (Particularly when politicians push the basic income amount up to placate constituencies) Because workers bow out of the system certain industries lose productive capacity. Maybe we stop producing enough food, or enough fuel. Prices rise (assuming a…

I'd be far more worried about this sending a false prosperity signal that could exacerbate our already insane and unsustainable population levels. What's really depressing is that not a single comment here or on the article even mentions this. Why the hell should I pay even more and subsidize those who have more than two kids?

> I'd be far more worried about this sending a false prosperity signal that could exacerbate our already insane and unsustainable population levels.

Strong social safety nets seem to be pretty strong contributors to reduced family size (which is why the developed world has low natural population growth and many of the places with the strongest safety nets have negative natural population growth) because people don't need children as a form of old-age insurance.

> Why the hell should I pay even more and subsidize those who have more than two kids?

A fixed basic income per adult is self-evidently not a subsidy for having more kids. In fact, compared to existing welfare policy (where the principal basis for cash benefits is number of dependent children), its a disincentive for that.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#219
Just imagine what one could do with one's life, backed by an unconditional income! One could strip off parts of the daily worries; one could try out more things; one could develop ideas, big ideas, without having to fear that a possible failure risks your and your family's lives.

Today, only very few people with a solid financial background can afford to work on big ideas. What a waste! Think of all those geniuses out there who can't just afford to take the time to read a book because they have to work so hard to feed their families!

I also want to argue, that merely the knowledge that you can't completely fail in your working life will cause a huge benefit for public health, physical and mental. I would bet that many diseases would just disappear, due to the lowering of the general distress level.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#220

> "How would we pay for it? We could start by getting corporations to pay their taxes." I don't know why people keep harping on corporate taxes. If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Taxing corporations doesn't produce magic money -- it's still taxing people in the end, but it's the consumers.…

>> If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices

Tax on corporate profit does not need to have this effect, because it only applies to profits, not to revenue.

Sure, if a corporation wants to keep the same amount of profit after a tax hike it has to put its prices up. But because we're only taxing what's happening after deduction of costs, there's room for others to come in and compete with a lower margin (and lower taxes as a result).

It encourages firms to reinvest, to hire more people and to find other productive ways to use the money rather than either sitting on it or passing it directly to shareholders.

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