Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income • Hacker News Board

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#181

Post by enko » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 4:55 PM UTC

dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

This is a really unhelpful comment. Why don't you think for a second next time before rushing out some snarky, superficial nonsense.

Of course people would still work, for the same reason you don't still live with your parents - although judging by your response, maybe you do. Are you personally going to be perfectly content with a $10K/yr subsistence allowance? And closing all schools? What are you talking about?

The fact is that many countries have something like this anyway, with probably a few more strings attached, and they haven't turned into anything like what you predict. The fact you name-drop "communism" just cements your obvious ignorance.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#182

Post by hackinthebochs » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 4:55 PM UTC

FreakyT wrote: post #155

dgallagher wrote: post #150

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on. The only condition is citizenship and/or residency. Sweet! None of us have to work anymore! Party at my place every night for life! You get the basic income whether or not you’re employed, any wages you earn are additional. Few, that's a relief. It'll be nice to close all of the school's down and tell kids they…

I agree with these concerns; I really can't see how a system like this would possibly work. Why would anyone do anything if they had no incentive to work?

This is absurd. People will work, they just won't "work for the man" if they don't want to. They will do things they enjoy. They will be creative. They will play sports. They will volunteer, etc etc.

Ask yourself: what would you do with your life if you had nothing to compel you into the daily grind for survival? If your basic needs were guaranteed to be met, what would you want to accomplish? Imagine a world where this were true for everyone. Why would anyone prefer this rat race to that? Just so you can continue to stratify society based on those who "contribute" in ways that have market value?

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#183

Post by ianburrell » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 4:56 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #83

effn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your suggestion has the same problems as most basic income proposals. 1) The numbers don't work out. Even a very steep CO2 tax will produce too little revenue for any form of meaningful BI. 2) The money collected on the CO2 tax could also be used for a general tax cut. So you still have the political problem of explaining to working middle class why their money is being handed out to lazy bums.

1) The numbers don't work out. Even a very steep CO2 tax will produce too little revenue for any form of meaningful BI. The USA currently consumes about 450 billion gallons of petroleum products per year, which is about 1.5 trillion pounds. We also mine about a billion short tons of coal per year, which is 2 trillion pounds. We have about 300 million people. Taxing $0.75/pound on carbon fuels would generate a bit ove…

Your carbon tax of $1500/ton of carbon is a couple of orders of magnitude bigger than any proposed carbon tax. Proposals are for $20/ton to reduce greehouse gas emissions to targets. Estimates of the social cost of carbon dioxide range from $50 to $200 per ton.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#184

Post by mrgoldenbrown » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 4:57 PM UTC

big_lou wrote: post #148

redwood wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My feeling is that corporations shouldn't have a disincentive to make money. Rather all ways of extracting money from corporations should be taxed at a high income tax level (rather than the low dividend and capital gains levels).

So corporations should have literally zero disincentive to make money? Is that what you intend to argue? Because that seems to imply that corporations should be completely unfettered in every conceivable way, be it legal, economic, ethical, or otherwise. Am I missing something there?

Yes, you are missing that the idea is to tax the money when individuals get it out of the corporation for private use. Right now capital gains and dividends taxes are relatively low.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#185

Post by khill » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 4:57 PM UTC

militiaman21 wrote: post #54

khill wrote: post #39

Wouldn't the basic income value need to vary across regions? For example, the notion that: "Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on" would mean a different value in San Francisco than in Grover, NC. If the government adjusted the basic income to account for regional cost-of-living, I imagine it would be popular to maintain a fake residency in an expen…

I'm fairly sure the government knows where we all truly live.

Unlikely. I know of a lot of people who live in New Jersey but register their auto in another state under a relative's address for cheaper insurance. I also know people who use an old address or the address of an acquaintance/relative so their child can attend a different school district.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#186

Post by sliverstorm » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 4:58 PM UTC

Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on.

Maybe we at least start with "enough to live somewhat uncomfortably on"? That way nobody starves or goes without basic necessities, but still have an incentive to improve their lot- and it isn't that hard, because they are on the cusp of living comfortably.

Another important factor, IMO, is how you index how much the income should be. Do you index it based on where the recipient lives? (I.e. everyone who lives in New York should get enough to live comfortably in New York) Do you index it based on average nationwide cost of living? Personally I'd be inclined to the latter.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#187

Post by h0w412d » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 4:58 PM UTC

There was an experiment with this called Mincome in Canada. They found that the only two groups of people who worked less were new moms and teenagers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#188

Post by tomkarlo » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 4:59 PM UTC

JonSkeptic wrote: post #115

The author of this is article is more than a little bit out of touch. To be honest, HN is the only place I have ever even heard people discuss the concept of an Unconditional Basic Income or call Bitcoin a "radical economic ideology". Most people in the US have never even heard of Bitcoin or an Unconditional Basic Income. The author is so far removed from reality that it's almost humorous. He cites an example where I…

Agreed... he lost me as soon as he cited that idiotic Kodak to Instagram concept. The idea that the 13 people at Instagram are the effective replacement for all of Kodak's business (while ignoring the 500K-odd people involved in building the phones instagram runs on) is so dumb it's galling.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#189

Post by khill » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:00 PM UTC

danielweber wrote: post #125

khill wrote: post #39

Wouldn't the basic income value need to vary across regions? For example, the notion that: "Every single adult member receives a weekly payment from the state, which is enough to live comfortably on" would mean a different value in San Francisco than in Grover, NC. If the government adjusted the basic income to account for regional cost-of-living, I imagine it would be popular to maintain a fake residency in an expen…

Living in an expensive area is a consumption choice. If I live in a mansion in that Grover, NC, would you say that my expenses were high so I deserve more basic income? High prices are the market telling you to consider looking someplace else to live. This is how the good ideas of progressive intellectuals get destroyed: other progressives want to weigh them down with all sorts of other social engineering baggage. (C…

I agree that choosing an expensive lifestyle is a consumption choice. I was just trying to make the point that it's difficult for a government to determine what basic income is "enough to live comfortably on".

Those kinds of decisions alienate voters and, as a result, are desperately avoided by congress critters.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#190

Post by mrgoldenbrown » Thu, Jul 11, 2013, 5:01 PM UTC

jeffdavis wrote: post #159

Though some more reasonable forms of this idea exist, this particular description has some major problems: * What if the money you pay someone does not go as far as expected? Maybe they lose some of the money in various ways, or maybe they are just very bad at negotiating economic transactions or buy the wrong kinds of things from the wrong places. Maybe they are trying to live in an expensive area -- do we kick them…

If the number of nurses willing to work for current rates goes down, then the market rate for nurses will go up. Eventually it will be high enough that being a nurse is more attractive than being a programmer.