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Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

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Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#91
post #55

Australia already has essentially this setup. Every person in the country can be paid $492.60 every two weeks ($12,800 yearly) and up to another $121 every two weeks ($3,146 yearly) to help with rent. Everyone qualifies, forever, irrelevant of past job history, education, family status, etc. etc. There is no time limit for the payments. The only difference between this and the article, is that if you get a job, whate…

Link appears to be broken: http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/01/16/dole-around-the-world-ho...

The interesting part in the article is that in order to receive this payment, you have to be actively looking for work. Not sure how this is measured, but the qualification makes it philosophically different from the unconditional wage being advocated.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#92
post #40
post #19

With basic income, wouldn't the economy adapt to the fresh money supply and rents and other costs raise to account for it? It would effectivly be additional currency inflation by a different name?

Maybe instead of giving everyone cash, the government could provide people with a default shelter, food plan, etc.

That'd be a whole lot more expensive, not meet people's individual needs as well, and have more opportunity for corruption and abuse.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#93

> "How would we pay for it? We could start by getting corporations to pay their taxes." I don't know why people keep harping on corporate taxes. If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Taxing corporations doesn't produce magic money -- it's still taxing people in the end, but it's the consumers.…

> If anything, taxing corporations is regressive

No, its not.

> the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels.

It increases producer prices which shifts the supply curve to the right, but its pretty self-evident that the effect on actual prices is dependent on price elasticity of demand in the markets for particular products, and that price elasticity of demand is not independent of the income of the people in the market for the product.

> Taxing corporations doesn't produce magic money -- it's still taxing people in the end, but it's the consumers.

No more than taxing labor income (which the US does disproportionately, as much capital income faces lower income tax rates and labor income is subject to additional, non-income taxes) is really taxing corporate stockholders, because it shifts the supply curve for labor increasing market clearing prices of labor and eating into corporate profit margins.

> We should be taxing the people who own the corporations, or are paid huge salaries by them -- that is, if you believe in progressive taxation.

But taxing high salaries is "regressive", just as much as taxing corporations, taxing consumers -- after all, if you shift the supply curve for management work and increase the market clearing price of that good, you are increasing producer costs and, therefore, shifting the supply curve for the good produced in a way which increases the market clearing cost, resulting in price increases to the consumer to pay the taxes. If you are going to make this argument for corporate taxes, you have to apply it to whatever you present as the alternative to corporate taxes, as well.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#94
The big issue with UBI entirely replacing the welfare system is that it ignores those who require more money due to disabilities. Person X can subsist on £Y/week, but person Z needs fooprazatine which costs a non-negligable quantity of £Y (there are also other, more nuanced scenarios but drugs come to mind first). Of course there are ways around it and medical benefit fraud is already incredibly low (it's hard to fake that you need a carer or an expensive regimen of drugs (painkillers notwithstanding)).

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#95
post #41
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Work is not nearly as fulfilling as doing nothing for most people. I have no trouble admitting this to myself. And while I'd probably still do something, I'd no longer see any need to make any compromises to work together with anybody else. That would be satisfying. It would also be an economically negative proposition, but I'd learn a lot. Or at least, I'd feel I do. 2) About the "Nordic countries". WTF ? Have yo…

>2) About the "Nordic countries". WTF ? Have you looked at the crime stats for Malmo ? Yeah, well immigration can create major problems with crime. >They also have very few homeless. Of course, homelessness is a death penalty there, merely because of the weather. That means that in Nordic countries everybody has a house, and not made from wood, double glazing, brick, generally solid and everybody's inside before the…

Or because homeless people just freeze to death quickly...

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#96

> "How would we pay for it? We could start by getting corporations to pay their taxes." I don't know why people keep harping on corporate taxes. If anything, taxing corporations is regressive -- the taxes ultimately get passed on to consumers through higher product prices, regardless of their income levels. Taxing corporations doesn't produce magic money -- it's still taxing people in the end, but it's the consumers.…

So in a no corp-tax world, if a US C-corp just keeps retained earnings and not pays out a dividend, then what? (Like Apple did for years.)

Granted, you still have capital gains from stock trading, etc. But if corporate profits not taxed, the company can simply sit on the money. They don't have to spend it on R&D, or anything else, as they do not need a tax write off.

It's a double-edge sword and there really isn't a silver bullet.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#97

Can somebody explain to me how basic income can work in terms of the cycle of spending? If companies have to pay for all of people's income through a taxable percentage of their income, then these companies will only receive a share of that amount back through consumer spending? So the economy will shrink in a vicious cycle, right?

I think it is hard to be confident about what would happen. If most people elected to stop working the economy would probably contract. If instead the impact were to give more people the option of making longer term choices, you might see the economy expand.

If the basic income is set at a basic enough level, work should remain an attractive option.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#98
post #55

Australia already has essentially this setup. Every person in the country can be paid $492.60 every two weeks ($12,800 yearly) and up to another $121 every two weeks ($3,146 yearly) to help with rent. Everyone qualifies, forever, irrelevant of past job history, education, family status, etc. etc. There is no time limit for the payments. The only difference between this and the article, is that if you get a job, whate…

I´m not sure if Australia is a good example.

From Wikipedia:

"The Report, Poverty In Australia, shows that in 2010, after taking account of housing costs, an estimated 2,265,000 people or 12.8% of all people, including 575,000 children (17.3% of all children), lived in households below the most austere poverty line widely used in international research."

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_Australia

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#99
post #33

Basic income on top of everything else doesn't make much sense (cost-wise). But if we could trade B.I. for Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, SNAP, and other social progams-- it would probably be more cost efficient as individuals look after their money better than other people do. Here's a video from Milton Friedman (not Tom Friedman!) who is advocating for a negative income tax-- a variation of basic income. http…

You can't use Social Security funds to fund a Basic Income. It operates similarly to a pension fund so it would be equivalent to confiscate peoples lifetime savings. Good luck explaining that to someone who is just about to retire.

> You can't use Social Security funds to fund a Basic Income.

Yes, you can.

> It operates similarly to a pension fund

It presents itself as one, but it really operates as a general-tax-supported social-benefit program with a variety of eligibility criteria.

> so it would be equivalent to confiscate peoples lifetime savings.

Sure, some people would politically attack it that way, particularly if the general BI reduced the SS benefits to which people already qualified would receive. Its less subject to this political attack, however, if SS is merged into BI in such a way that no one currently paid into SS ends up with less BI at any point than they would have received from SS.

Re: Trends that will create demand for an Unconditional Basic Income

#100
post #55

Australia already has essentially this setup. Every person in the country can be paid $492.60 every two weeks ($12,800 yearly) and up to another $121 every two weeks ($3,146 yearly) to help with rent. Everyone qualifies, forever, irrelevant of past job history, education, family status, etc. etc. There is no time limit for the payments. The only difference between this and the article, is that if you get a job, whate…

Link appears to be broken: http://www.crikey.com.au/2013/01/16/dole-around-the-world-ho... The interesting part in the article is that in order to receive this payment, you have to be actively looking for work. Not sure how this is measured, but the qualification makes it philosophically different from the unconditional wage being advocated.

Thanks for the link update.

You are right, you must apply for x jobs per month, and keep a logbook of that activity.

In that sense, yes, it's philosophically different from the unconditional wage, but it's a good example of the effect on society (no extreme poverty, huge middle class, higher taxes, etc.)

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