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Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

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Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#241

Post by snuxoll »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #233
Arjuna wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Today in the US, if you call 911 about an emergency medical condition, they will often send a fire engine along with an ambulance [...]" This is SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). 1. Imagine a scenario where an ambulance arrives as a first responder, and the EMTs [1] find that they cannot gain access to the emergency scene, because the home or other structure is locked or otherwise blocked. In this case, a firetruc…

And yet I can imagine this is something that could be optimized; why not cross-train the three emergency respondent department members into jack-of-all-trades that can deal with 80% of cases? Or put members of the three departments into a single vehicle equipped to deal with most cases? They could travel swifly to the site and deal with most cases, and call in back-up (like a fully equipped ambulance, fire-truck, or…

> And yet I can imagine this is something that could be optimized; why not cross-train the three emergency respondent department members into jack-of-all-trades that can deal with 80% of cases?

Because we need firefighters anyway, and EMT's in ambulances are often volunteers or paid substantially lower than a fireman in most areas of the country. Bear in mind, you're also talking about putting additional equipment in what is already a jam-packed ambulance, if you end up needing to dispatch another vehicle it might as well be a fire-truck (you never know when someone forgot to say "my house is on fire" when they called in because their wife isn't breathing after dragging her out of the house).

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#242

Post by mabhatter »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #233
Arjuna wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Today in the US, if you call 911 about an emergency medical condition, they will often send a fire engine along with an ambulance [...]" This is SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). 1. Imagine a scenario where an ambulance arrives as a first responder, and the EMTs [1] find that they cannot gain access to the emergency scene, because the home or other structure is locked or otherwise blocked. In this case, a firetruc…

And yet I can imagine this is something that could be optimized; why not cross-train the three emergency respondent department members into jack-of-all-trades that can deal with 80% of cases? Or put members of the three departments into a single vehicle equipped to deal with most cases? They could travel swifly to the site and deal with most cases, and call in back-up (like a fully equipped ambulance, fire-truck, or…

Firemen and EMTS DON'T WANT to be cops! That's why "public safety" movements fail. They don't want to be forced to issue citations for petty drug laws while trying to save people from health or fire emergencies. It's not an uncommon situation for somebody with petty illegal activity to start shooting at firemen trying to stop their house being on fire because they think firemen might arrest them. Regular fireman just want to take care of safety.. They don't want to put on jackboots and arrest people.

Of course the Feds want as many police as possible because of the laws militarizing them and actually disincentive separete rate fire protection with rigged grant processes.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#243

Post by discardorama »

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #174
Arjuna wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Today in the US, if you call 911 about an emergency medical condition, they will often send a fire engine along with an ambulance [...]" This is SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). 1. Imagine a scenario where an ambulance arrives as a first responder, and the EMTs [1] find that they cannot gain access to the emergency scene, because the home or other structure is locked or otherwise blocked. In this case, a firetruc…

How about a HazMat team? Imagine a scenario where the EMTs cannot gain access to the emergency scene because there are toxic substances in their way. You can't rely on the incoming 911 calls to decide on a case by case basis so you might as well send a HazMat team alongside the ambulance and firetruck for each and every call. And what about an anti-terrorist unit? Imagine a scenario where...

In San Francisco, people have been trying to get stats on how many times the fire trucks are sent on medical emergencies ("unresponsive man on the sidewalk"). The SFFD has resisted all attempts at such inquiry. I often see big fire trucks responding for homeless people, and it seems like such a waste. But their union is too powerful.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#244

Post by dragonwriter »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #233
Arjuna wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Today in the US, if you call 911 about an emergency medical condition, they will often send a fire engine along with an ambulance [...]" This is SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). 1. Imagine a scenario where an ambulance arrives as a first responder, and the EMTs [1] find that they cannot gain access to the emergency scene, because the home or other structure is locked or otherwise blocked. In this case, a firetruc…

And yet I can imagine this is something that could be optimized; why not cross-train the three emergency respondent department members into jack-of-all-trades that can deal with 80% of cases? Or put members of the three departments into a single vehicle equipped to deal with most cases? They could travel swifly to the site and deal with most cases, and call in back-up (like a fully equipped ambulance, fire-truck, or…

> And yet I can imagine this is something that could be optimized; why not cross-train the three emergency respondent department members into jack-of-all-trades that can deal with 80% of cases?

Because that's very expensive (increasing initial and ongoing costs for training and equipping every first-response unit), and in the many cases where more than the minimal response is known to be necessary from the first call, and in cases where those departments aren't acting as first responders, it doesn't save anything.

> I'm not an expert, but that would reduce overhead and cross-department communication needs.

No, training and equipping EMTs to be adequate-for-most-cases firefighters and cops, firefighters to be adequate-for-most-cases cops and EMTs, and cops to be adequate-for-most-cases EMTs and firefighters would not reduce overhead. Quite the opposite.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#245

Post by snuxoll »

bluedino wrote: post #238
Graham24 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

do americans get a bill if they call for a fire engine?

Depending on where you live, and what the incident is, yes. Since fire fighters usually serve paramedic roles, a fire truck will often be dispatched to a serious car accident. If you're lucky your car insurance will cover some or all of the bill. What you don't want is the $10,000 bill if they send a helicopter out.

> What you don't want is the $10,000 bill if they send a helicopter out.

If you frequently find yourself in locations where a heli may be needed you may want to invest in a membership with your hospital or regional network (in the northwest US (ID, OR, WA) there is the life flight network, $60 a year covers any costs that your insurance don't pay).

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#246

Post by mabhatter »

vacri wrote: post #140
jimzvz wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of where the responsibility lies, it is unacceptable. I agree that the actual police officer does not control policies but they do control their own actions and it is part of the job description to put their lives on the line for the benefit of the general public. If they are not happy with that then they can leave the job that they voluntarily entered. As soon as they draw a gun on someone without clear e…

Emergency services have to put their own safety above the public safety. It's how they're trained, and it's necessary. If you sacrifice an officer of the emergency service for a member of the public, you now have one more member of the public... well, actually you don't because the officer is also a member of the public... and you have also lost a trained officer, who can't respond to future requests for help, so the…

POLICE are not "emergency services" when they get to carry guns. EMTS and Firemen do just fine without guns. Why can't Police?

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#247

Post by mabhatter »

yardie wrote: post #223
matt__rose wrote: post #76

David Simon and Ed Burns wrote the following passage for the TV show, "The Wire" spoken by Bunny Colvin: >>> This was written in 2004. With the passage of time, it seems more and more prescient.

It's not prescient because that is how it's been in predominantly black neighbourhoods. Black people have been saying this for the last 2-3 decades through protests, riots, and community organisers. It's only now that everyone has a cameraphone and a Youtube account do you get to see what's been going on. Even well respected actor, Levar Burton, knows how to act in front of police. https://www.youtube.com/watch?featu…

Being as its Levar...

His famous role was in Roots as the slave that kept getting lashed for not taking a proper English name from his owner over and over if he would just say his English name...

So its more than a little ironic that THIS actor makes a video about how to be properly submissive to his mas'ers!

It just sad that he would have to make a video like that because most of his TV time has been spent reading books to children. He's about as threatening as Mr. Rogers and still gets the jackboot.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#248

Post by webXL »

jbooth wrote: post #215
danielweber wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.npr.org/2009/08/13/111843426/folsom-embodies-cali... In three decades, the California Correctional Peace Officers Association has become one of the most powerful political forces in California. The union has contributed millions of dollars to support "three strikes" and other laws that lengthen sentences and increase parole sanctions. It donated $1 million to Wilson after he backed the three strikes law. I…

Millions????? OMG Give me a break. Unions have a lot of problems but if they were so damned influential, maybe every public sector union except for federal security wouldn't have been losing jobs and hours for the last 10 years.

The only reason public sector unions exist is because they are so influential, despite FDR's warning against them and the conflict of interest that falls on the taxpayers representatives who often have their campaigns partially financed by unions. And I don't think you can look at the past 10 years of "belt tightening" at the state and local level (let's be real, that's where the cuts are), and say they aren't that influential. They still have tons of power.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#249

Post by mabhatter »

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #42
takluyver wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a policeman has access to body armor and machine guns to serve a warrant on some guy in a house, he will take them along. Interestingly, in the UK, where regular policemen don't carry guns, most policemen apparently don't want to have firearms. Obviously this is a rather different culture, and there's a difference between a collective matter (should we all be armed?) and an individual matter (should I be armed t…

I think part of the reason for UK police not wanting guns is primarily what the UK police see as their mission: It is community policing, where UK police try to work within and with the permission of the community because they feel they're most effective that way (also called "policing by consent"). http://www.civitas.org.uk/pubs/policeNine.php Police carrying guns makes them "scary" to the general public, and as suc…

Here was an article a while ago about making safer beer mugs so barfights didn't turn into dangerous weapons. The UK police were backing rolling them out.

American police just shoot fuckers instead of getting in a minor tussle.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#250

Post by mabhatter »

roc wrote: post #64
Spooky23 wrote: post #27

The SWAT issue is a different issue IMO, more related to politicians wanting to "do something" at the Federal and State levels. "Doing something" translates to "allocate funding". That money can pay for more cops/overtime, or stuff. Or it may be earmarked by a congressman whose donor makes light tanks to only buy tanks. The us vs. them stuff is related to the state of affairs in high-crime communities. Cops can't rel…

> "The cop has no idea who may be behind a door when they knock" The cop also has no idea what's waiting for them in a vehicle they've just pulled over on the highway. Some of them have been murdered in exactly that situation. But should they all suit up before writing traffic tickets?

And the number of people illegally beaten or killed by cops at routine traffic stops is an order of magnitude higher than cops injured or killed.
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