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Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

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Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#231

Post by cadasfafad »

alan_cx wrote: post #155

Not a flippant comment...... I blame Hollywood. I honestly do. They glamorize and hero worship mega violent law breaking cops, while at the same time portraying criminals as super beings with government like resources, who always lose due to the violent law breaking cops. The people in the end believe this to be a vaguely true, even though in their lives they rarely see it, most cops are in fact fairly decent profess…

I think it's not just that Hollywood movies are influencing the Police, although that is part of it. Art both reflects and influences culture. It's hard to separate out causes and effects, although it's clear there is a problem here.

American culture as a whole places a ridiculous emphasis on empowerment through violence. It's everywhere; films, tv, books, music, punditry, news reporting, people's attitudes and idle conversation. A huge proportion of narratives resolve themselves through heroic violence. Often a heroic character will find inner strength through physical violence (and often inner strength means becoming murderously callous).

If you take a step back and look at it critically, it is rather absurd. In the real world true empowerment comes from intelligence and leadership skills. In the real world, having to kill lots of people would be very traumatic (at least for a well adjusted person).

I don't think it's as simple as violent movies causing violence. I think the real dangers come from the unspoken assumptions, the things that movies take for granted, which then become part of everyday thinking.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#232

Post by Cthulhu_ »

nostromo wrote: post #189
Arjuna wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Today in the US, if you call 911 about an emergency medical condition, they will often send a fire engine along with an ambulance [...]" This is SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). 1. Imagine a scenario where an ambulance arrives as a first responder, and the EMTs [1] find that they cannot gain access to the emergency scene, because the home or other structure is locked or otherwise blocked. In this case, a firetruc…

Check out this chart: http://marginalrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Wha... There may even be a happy middle-ground with regards to firefighters. In eastern King County, they don't send out a firetruck and three firefighters for non-lethal medical emergencies anymore -- they just send a single firefighter in an SUV.

SUV? Over here (Netherlands) they send them in tiny cars (http://www.mijnalbum.nl/GroteFoto-SMYHWONA.jpg for example, but I've seen even smaller, two-person city cars with a flashlight bolted on). If it's just to carry a person with some essential first responder tools (fire extinguisher, medkit, axe / tools), you don't need anything big. Of course, in the US, distances are much larger than over here.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#233

Post by Cthulhu_ »

Arjuna wrote: post #129
nostromo wrote: post #80

Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high. (Those factors could have a causal relationship, but I doubt it's the primary cause based on reading "The Better Angels of Our Nature".) http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010... Having big budgets but less crime means these swollen budgets end up being wasted on a lot of "fun" things like military gear. (Did you know t…

"Today in the US, if you call 911 about an emergency medical condition, they will often send a fire engine along with an ambulance [...]" This is SOP (Standard Operating Procedure). 1. Imagine a scenario where an ambulance arrives as a first responder, and the EMTs [1] find that they cannot gain access to the emergency scene, because the home or other structure is locked or otherwise blocked. In this case, a firetruc…

And yet I can imagine this is something that could be optimized; why not cross-train the three emergency respondent department members into jack-of-all-trades that can deal with 80% of cases? Or put members of the three departments into a single vehicle equipped to deal with most cases? They could travel swifly to the site and deal with most cases, and call in back-up (like a fully equipped ambulance, fire-truck, or paramilitary SWAT-team in an armored hum-vee) if the situation needs it. I'm not an expert, but that would reduce overhead and cross-department communication needs.

Of course, the risk is that if the one vehicle has an accident in itself, there's no others that can fall in right then.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#234

Post by Cthulhu_ »

yardie wrote: post #219
mililani wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe crime is at an all time low because everyone is in prison. http://dcj.state.co.us/ors/images/Stats%20Images/crime%20rat...

I'm going to go with Freakonomics on this one and believe crime is low because fewer criminals are being born.

Link? Or is this your way of expressing you believe criminal tendencies are a genetic trait?

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#235

Post by Cthulhu_ »

coldtea wrote: post #122
rayiner wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high. Two words: public unions.

We have unions over here in Europe too. Even more respected actually. But they don't correlate with "police spending". Perhaps the word you're looking for is "lobbyists" and "demagogues".

Indeed; the view I have of unions in Europe are worker organizations that protect and enforce the rights of employees, things like minimum wage, working conditions, fair treatment, and retaining of jobs; afaik, they don't do much to create jobs, let alone in an immoral way by paying lots of money to governments and organizations to, for example, increase the incarceration rate and duration.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#236

Post by yardie »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #234
yardie wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to go with Freakonomics on this one and believe crime is low because fewer criminals are being born.

Link? Or is this your way of expressing you believe criminal tendencies are a genetic trait?

> criminal tendencies are a genetic trait?

What?! No, I believe criminal tendencies are produced from your environment. Kids in bad homes tend to grow into bad people.

Link: http://www.freakonomics.com/2005/05/15/abortion-and-crime-wh...

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#237

Post by astine »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #234
yardie wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to go with Freakonomics on this one and believe crime is low because fewer criminals are being born.

Link? Or is this your way of expressing you believe criminal tendencies are a genetic trait?

http://www.freakonomics.com/2008/01/22/what-do-declining-abo...

The original argument is in the book. The idea is that children from disadvantaged families are more likely to be aborted, while at the same time, children from disadvantaged families are also more likely to be crime prone. So, logically, abortion reduces crime with a twenty year delay. Personally, I like the lead theory[1] better, but it doesn't matter. It's not about eugenics or genes.

1 http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/01/lead-crime-li...

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#238

Post by bluedino »

Graham24 wrote: post #230
bluedino wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You also get a bill for $400 for the firetruck and $10 for each fireman

do americans get a bill if they call for a fire engine?

Depending on where you live, and what the incident is, yes. Since fire fighters usually serve paramedic roles, a fire truck will often be dispatched to a serious car accident. If you're lucky your car insurance will cover some or all of the bill.

What you don't want is the $10,000 bill if they send a helicopter out.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#239

Post by superuser2 »

tolmasky wrote: post #113
mathattack wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high." Isn't this cause and effect? Crime is lower because we are hiring more policemen. That is certainly one conclusion from Freakonomics. This is just a digression, because I do think the "Cops as Warriors" model is very scary, as "collateral damage" becomes acceptable in a war.

But if spending AND crime were at an all time high wed be saying that its cause and affect in the other direction and probably be making the argument that we need even more spending! So no matter what high budgets are always justified.

If you're not adjusting for inflation, spending on nearly everything is at an all-time high. (And when you're arguing that budgets are too high, it's rarely in your interest to adjust for inflation).

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#240

Post by qohen »

nrivadeneira wrote: post #108

One of my best friends is NYPD working in the projects in Brownsville NY, one of the most dangerous cities in NYC. From the stories he tells me, he is fighting a war. Of course, that's not applicable to most other areas, but it's worth noting that when your day-to-day job is dealing with the criminals and scum of the earth, it changes your perspective on life.

Forgive my pedantry, but: dangerous as it is, Brownsville is not a city, but rather a neighborhood of Brooklyn, NY:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville,_Brooklyn

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