Live data from Hacker News

Chemists Work to Desalt the Ocean for Drinking Water, One Nanoliter at a Time

utexas.edu

21–30 of 61 posts

Re: Chemists Work to Desalt the Ocean for Drinking Water, One Nanoliter at a Time

#21
Original paper: doi: 10.1002/anie.201302577

From their paper it is mentioned they have a 40 nanolitre/min flow rate (25% desalination rate, 99% is considered safe to drink water).

They use an electric pole to generate an ion depletion zone, their problem right now lies in the severely limited flow rate and desalination rate. From my understanding the 25% desalination rate does not compound linearly and decreases in efficiency as the concentration of salt ions decreases.

Additionally their flow rate is 0.4 microlitres per minute, this would equate to needing 625 000 channels for one pass only to get 250mL / min. Scaling for microfluidics isn't simply using a larger pipe size, microfluidic devices largely operate with minimal forces and a Reynolds number of 1, that doesn't hold as you get larger.

The other big problem here is that this requires pressure driven flow, to do that they made two reservoirs of uneven height on opposite ends to drive flow. Again this is very electrically cheap (picowatts) when dealing with such small and perfect flow conditions.

The biggest problems they need to address are the low filtration rate and the low flow rate, it does not seem like there is a simple answer to the first, they do state that they are conducting a larger scale experiment that they will publish later.

I largely suspect that the larger scale experiment will fail in efficiency as another group (doi:10.1038/nnano.2010.34) who also uses a ion depletion zone (albeit by a different mechanism) found after publishing that they were orders of magnitude (10^3) too low in their predictions.

If anything this will perhaps be better than small, portable RO setups but not replace large factories which are actually pretty efficient.

Re: Chemists Work to Desalt the Ocean for Drinking Water, One Nanoliter at a Time

#22
post #17

does the ocean still clean these days ? very nice job, expect to see it available soon

This is a great question. Distillation has the side effect of removing all of the microbes from water and sanitizing the output, but if this method only removes the salt will the output water be clean enough to drink?

Do you think they clean your local city water? They don't. They filter it a bit, then add chlorine to deal with biologicals, and that's it.

Re: Chemists Work to Desalt the Ocean for Drinking Water, One Nanoliter at a Time

#24
post #20

I don't put much stock in those who make claims like "the next world war will be over water", because we have a massive supply of water (the ocean) and a massive supply of energy (the sun) to power whatever we need to do to make it drinkable. A floating desalination plant powered by an x000-acre floating solar platform, pumping clean water back to shore, and dispersing slightly saltier water across a wide area, doesn…

Water shortages are political in nature. The technical and logistical parts have been solved for a while.

Still doesn't sell massive war - shortages are political in regions where people generally have nothing.

Wars - technological ones of the type major powers would fight - are expensive. Far more expensive then any amount of desalinization we would need to build.

Re: Chemists Work to Desalt the Ocean for Drinking Water, One Nanoliter at a Time

#25

I don't put much stock in those who make claims like "the next world war will be over water", because we have a massive supply of water (the ocean) and a massive supply of energy (the sun) to power whatever we need to do to make it drinkable. A floating desalination plant powered by an x000-acre floating solar platform, pumping clean water back to shore, and dispersing slightly saltier water across a wide area, doesn…

  The process doesn't even have to be super efficient
Economics are important. We didn't go back to the moon because it was too expensive, and we're not going to see massive-scale desalination because it's also too expensive: http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/10/the-energy-water...

  California uses 46 billion gallons of water per day. 
  Supplying 25% of this via desalination would require 36 GW of 
  thermal-equivalent power. California runs on 30 GW of 
  electricity, and a total energy budget of 262 GW (thermal; 
  from oil, gas, coal, hydro, nuclear, etc.—according to the 
  EIA). That’s a substantial amount for 25% of our water needs.
A "ten dollar glass of water" isn't even the big issue. Agriculture requires water, and expensive water means expensive food. Expensive food means people die, mostly from bullet wounds inflicted by people who are hungry. (I hardly need to provide citations for the number of wars resulting from food shortages)

Re: Chemists Work to Desalt the Ocean for Drinking Water, One Nanoliter at a Time

#26
post #5

It would be great if a Solar cell or small panel could power it. That could be a life saver in emergency situations.

The absolute minimum energy you need is 2.2kJ per liter. A 4x4 inch solar cell could do that in about 2 hours.

However I suspect that you'll never actually desalinate water for that amount of energy in a portable system.

The very best commercial systems manage to do it with about 3 times the energy of the minimum. More common ones are about 10 times the minimum.

Re: Chemists Work to Desalt the Ocean for Drinking Water, One Nanoliter at a Time

#27
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

0.7A is the current of the "store bought" (AA) battery, suggested by the article. To make this technology energetically favourable to boiling, it must not exceed ~700μA in current, and it has to be far less than that to be worth its complexity.

Uh? No battery[1] delivers a constant amount of current: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law Solving for current, Ohm's law is I = V/R. You only deliver .7 amps of current into a 4.285 ohm load. If you connect a 3 volt battery to a 1,000 ohm resistor, then only 0.003 amps of current will flow, which is 9 milliwatts. Connect a 3 volt battery to a .01 ohm load (a dead short, almost) and 300 amps of current will fl…

I had an electrical engineering old timer explain the misconception as the Current Push Theory. (His industrial war stories were pretty good.)

Re: Chemists Work to Desalt the Ocean for Drinking Water, One Nanoliter at a Time

#28
"The new method requires so little energy that it can run on a store-bought battery."

What a silly measurement. I can buy a laptop battery or a car battery at a store. Also it does not give any idea of how much water could be produced from the battery. A teaspoon per battery probably isn't too great. (Although at the moment they get only nanoliters of salty water from it of course).

Re: Chemists Work to Desalt the Ocean for Drinking Water, One Nanoliter at a Time

#29
"consumes less energy and is dramatically simpler than conventional techniques."

I remember a video that shows some kind of filter (it looked like a plastic sheet). They were simply pushing water against it and you get clean water from salty water.

I don't think it gets easier than that. However if I remember correctly the filter gets unusable after a while

Re: Chemists Work to Desalt the Ocean for Drinking Water, One Nanoliter at a Time

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh? No battery[1] delivers a constant amount of current: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law Solving for current, Ohm's law is I = V/R. You only deliver .7 amps of current into a 4.285 ohm load. If you connect a 3 volt battery to a 1,000 ohm resistor, then only 0.003 amps of current will flow, which is 9 milliwatts. Connect a 3 volt battery to a .01 ohm load (a dead short, almost) and 300 amps of current will fl…

I had an electrical engineering old timer explain the misconception as the Current Push Theory. (His industrial war stories were pretty good.)

Googling for "Current Push Theory" only gets 5 results, none of them relevant: https://www.google.com/search?num=100&q=%22Current+Push+Theo...

Can you please define the Current Push Theory?

Post reply on HN