Live data from Hacker News

Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

alexstechthoughts.com

201–210 of 246 posts

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fetishizing hard work is a purely American phenomenon. Like many other parts of American culture, it has to do with the country's Puritan roots. Back in England, the Puritans were entirely city people. Even those who lived on the countryside were not farmers. So when they came to America, they had to work extra hard to learn farming and adopt that lifestyle, which was made even more difficult by the fact that the soi…

Fetishizing hard work is a purely American phenomenon True, if by "American" you mean "American, German, Swiss, Austrian, Swedish, Japanese, Victorian British, and Protestant". (I'm sure I left out a few, actually).

It's not really about nationality, it's about the company you run or work for. Sure some nationalities generally stick to shorter hours, but the reaction you get from coworkers or the boss if you keep a strict 8 - 16 day is company culture.

I work for a small company, where the owner work long hour, 12 - 16 hours a day. My desire to stay at home in my hammock in the garden doesn't really fit their view of working. However if I did my jobs a developer to perfection, then they wouldn't know the different between me sleeping in the hammock or sitting behind the desk. It can be hard to explain, because it quickly become "time we could be spending on other projects".

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#202
post #70
post #3

When I worked at a large corporation, I nearly automated all of my work and I was called lazy. I'd do about an hour work a day, customize an existing script to process new data, then read for the remaining 6 hours. Co-workers called me a lazy nerd and proceeded to copy paste words into excel for 8 hours. Now I get to wake up at 12, smoke a joint, have a beer, take a shower, go for a walk with my dog, and then work on…

> When I worked at a large corporation, I nearly automated all of my work and I was called lazy. I'd do about an hour work a day, customize an existing script to process new data, then read for the remaining 6 hours. Co-workers called me a lazy nerd and proceeded to copy paste words into excel for 8 hours. Oh my god, I'm dealing with this now. I made a Python program that automated a lot of our Excel work. It reduced…

The likely real reason you got such a frosty reception from your manager is because your automation directly threatens his position by making redundant his headcount.

My default advice (because I've seen this more than just a few times) in situations like these is to wait 2-3 weeks, then go back to the manager and say, "Hey Boss, remember that automation I showed you the other week? Your experience proved you right; after our meeting I went back and tested some more because you were so cautious about the idea, and indeed found edge cases it didn't catch, and man it's a pain to work through them all so I tossed the code. Boy, am I glad you advised me to tread carefully there with all your years of hard-won experience!". Unless you can get at an actual-owner who would see the obvious direct benefits, slash the workforce, and protect you from the backlash, you are not going to progress anywhere by continuing to threaten your manager the way you are now. Getting demoted or even laid off is a real possibility for you with a reaction like that to automation. The management level to sell this to is the one that will benefit from decreased headcount while holding productivity at the same level (or some variation thereof).

In the meantime, keep your automation on the down-low, use it to free up your time, maybe share with a very close friend at work (if you know for absolutely certain they won't blab, as a reveal is exceedingly likely unless they are a fellow coder and see the logic in my advice above, and maybe not even then), then allocate the slack time to other activities that will boost your marketability on your own equipment (learn new stuff, write more code, etc.). When the time is right, find a better job and jet, and leave them never the wiser about the possibility of automation (unless you want to come back and sell your automation to an owner or high-level manager, for the estimated savings on 3-5 years of automated-away fully-burdened labor expenses, which will look good on their budget...just make sure you do a new/improved from-scratch rewrite with better error checking/etc. on your own time and sell that and not the code you wrote while they employed you).

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#204
post #70
post #3

When I worked at a large corporation, I nearly automated all of my work and I was called lazy. I'd do about an hour work a day, customize an existing script to process new data, then read for the remaining 6 hours. Co-workers called me a lazy nerd and proceeded to copy paste words into excel for 8 hours. Now I get to wake up at 12, smoke a joint, have a beer, take a shower, go for a walk with my dog, and then work on…

> When I worked at a large corporation, I nearly automated all of my work and I was called lazy. I'd do about an hour work a day, customize an existing script to process new data, then read for the remaining 6 hours. Co-workers called me a lazy nerd and proceeded to copy paste words into excel for 8 hours. Oh my god, I'm dealing with this now. I made a Python program that automated a lot of our Excel work. It reduced…

Sounds like a terrible place to work. I work at a big corp and one of my jobs is to find people doing silly things like this and eliminate (the tasks) through automation.

My advice - quit and find another job at a more enlightened place.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree here. If what you're saying is correct, then the following would be true: School != Work Learning new language != Work Testing new lang/framework != Work This is blatantly false, because doing these things may enable you to create something you couldn't before. Let's take two people. Person A only does code. Person B both codes and learns new theory. Person A creates something in X hours. Person B spends X…

It really depends on what you're reading on HN, if you're reading about acquisitions or gossip or meta commentary like this, then definitely HN != work if you're reading a technical article then definitely HN = work. And I believe they're both useful information, but one of them definitely isn't work.

I would split the hair even finer and say if you're researching how to accomplish a particular task and you serendipitously find an article on HN then you're doing work, but that's pure luck since normally you would be Googling rather than surfing HN. Reading HN "for the [tech] articles" is at best like going to university—you may be preparing for future work, but all this abstract preparation and self-betterment is not the same thing as real work and we would be wise not to fool ourselves.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fetishizing hard work is a purely American phenomenon True, if by "American" you mean "American, German, Swiss, Austrian, Swedish, Japanese, Victorian British, and Protestant". (I'm sure I left out a few, actually).

It's not really about nationality, it's about the company you run or work for. Sure some nationalities generally stick to shorter hours, but the reaction you get from coworkers or the boss if you keep a strict 8 - 16 day is company culture. I work for a small company, where the owner work long hour, 12 - 16 hours a day. My desire to stay at home in my hammock in the garden doesn't really fit their view of working. Ho…

It's not really about nationality

In my experience nationality (or, to put it another way, the culture that you share with the people in your region) does matter. I'm certainly not saying that a nation's work ethic is shared by every single citizen - generalizations naturally don't apply to everyone. I'm also not saying that all companies in a country behave the same - there are going to be variations. But overall, the way you look at work varies greatly from country to country.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Elon Musk, Oprah, Marissa Meyer, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey Not to be a cynic, but except in the case of Bill Gates, it's not clear these people were not cases of being in the right place at the right time more than any specific brilliance.

That's basically what I mean. There are so many other factors involved. "Overwork = Bill Gates" is just about as meaningful as "Dropping out of school = Bill Gates." Maybe! But probably not.

I like that, you frequently hear "You just need to work hard", never "First thing you do is drop out of school".

May Bill need to work harder because he dropped out? Without any context the "work harder" does automatically mean that you'll succeed, nor that it's worth the effort.

David Heinemeier had a beautiful talk about being happy with a million dollars, rather aiming for the billion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#208

Work smarter, not harder. I am going to create a startup soon and we're going to work out of my beachfront 2-bedroom FIOS-equipped apt for starters. The schedule will be: 9am-noon: 5 minute standup to spec work for the day, then code. Noon-2pm: Lunch but also surf, bike, boogieboard, suntan, volleyball, just do something fucking outside that involves physical activity. 2-5pm: Code. If you finish early, you get to lea…

I'd be interested in you blogging your experience with this.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#210
HBR had an article about this not long ago exploring the "why" (based on several studies on the topic):

http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2013/05/why_men_work_so_many_hours.h...

The takeaway:

'Not only is work devotion a "class act" - a way of enacting class status--it's also a certain way of being a "real" man. Working long hours is seen as a "heroic activity," noted Cynthia Fuchs Epstein and her co-authors in their 1999 study of lawyers. Marianne Cooper's study of engineers in Silicon Valley closely observes how working long hours turns pencil pushing or computer keyboarding into a manly test of physical endurance. "There's a kind of machismo culture that you don't sleep," one father told her. "Successful enactment of this masculinity," Cooper concludes, "involves displaying one's exhaustion, physically and verbally, in order to convey the depth of one's commitment, stamina, and virility."'

The above shows that in many cases Long Hours Are Not About Working, but about signaling dedication and toughness (maybe Robert Hanson could write a post about this one.)

With that said: as someone who has worked many, many of those long weeks (and still does so on occasion) I do see some truth in there, but it's of course more nuanced. I've seen people work long hours because other things in their lives are going wrong (and they were escaping it), because of management pressure (this was in the lull between the previous boom and the current one), or simply because it was "crunch/launch time" (for real - which is a completely valid reason for a long week.)

Post reply on HN