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Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

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Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#81

Post by blhack »

enko wrote: post #75

You can't make this shit up. > Police in North Dakota borrowed a $154 million MQ-9 Predator B drone from the Department of Homeland Security to arrest a family of anti-government separatists who refused to return six cows that wandered onto their farm.

That's really misleading.

There is a base in Grand Forks, ND that houses several CBP (Customs and Border Patrol) Predator Drones, and they work with local law enforcement when asked to.

So, more than likely, the drone is going to be flying home here anyway, and made a pass over some property.

The facility where these things are flown from isn't some top secret bunker or anything, it's an office building on the air force base, and they give tours to local schools[1]. A local cop probably just stood behind one of the pilots while they flew over the property and spotted the cows.

Also: to somebody who didn't grow up in this area, that probably sounds really silly...but keep in mind that cows are worth a couple of thousand dollars each. So you're talking, low end, about $12,000 worth of property that they won't return. That's like having a stolen car.

--

I think something like this (flying a UAV, since CBP doesn't actually fly drones) should require a search warrant, but this is a totally reasonable use of resources IMHO.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, I guess.

[1]: They'd probably give a tour to anybody that asked, actually. Grand Forks is home to one of the biggest and best Aviation and Aerospace engineering schools in the world[2], and it would surprise me if there wasn't a relationship between the air force base there, and the school. If any HNers are ever up there, I'd suggest asking for a tour.

[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Odegard_School_of_Aeros...

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#82

Post by brianlweiner »

Spooky23 wrote: post #43
jimzvz wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a policeman has access to body armor and machine guns to serve a warrant on some guy in a house, he will take them along. The cop has no idea who may be behind a door when they knock -- they may be intoxicated/high, have a vicious pit bull, or just be a scared kid with a gun and nothing to lose. The policeman wants to go home to see his kids at the end of his shift. Uh, shouldn't this information be available base…

Easy for a guy sitting in a chair in front of a computer to say. I'm not justifying the behavior, I'm trying to illuminate why it's happening. You're attributing responsibility for a situation to people who don't make decisions. Society has made choices (let's move to the burbs to get away from those poor folk) and your representatives have enacted laws that have created all sorts of absurd situations. And we drop po…

Police actively lobby for many of the tactics and policies being decried in these articles.

They routinely oppose state level drug decriminalization (with sheriffs and other local police actively coordinating with DEA / Federal officials to undermine local / state policies).

They also oppose and actively hinder investigations into police malfeasance, firing of corrupt / incompetent officers, and many other forms of limited civilian oversight.

The idea that police officers and their ilk (correctional officers, district attorneys, etc) don't have an active hand in the types of laws and policies being practice in America is not at all true.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#83

Post by enko »

blhack wrote: post #81
enko wrote: post #75

You can't make this shit up. > Police in North Dakota borrowed a $154 million MQ-9 Predator B drone from the Department of Homeland Security to arrest a family of anti-government separatists who refused to return six cows that wandered onto their farm.

That's really misleading. There is a base in Grand Forks, ND that houses several CBP (Customs and Border Patrol) Predator Drones, and they work with local law enforcement when asked to. So, more than likely, the drone is going to be flying home here anyway, and made a pass over some property. The facility where these things are flown from isn't some top secret bunker or anything, it's an office building on the air fo…

Well, it's quoting from the ACLU feature. The headline does take a certain stance, but 10 years ago it would sound like some joke headline from Robocop.

I'm not a US citizen but if I was I'd love to take that tour.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#84

Post by rickdale »

blhack wrote: post #81
enko wrote: post #75

You can't make this shit up. > Police in North Dakota borrowed a $154 million MQ-9 Predator B drone from the Department of Homeland Security to arrest a family of anti-government separatists who refused to return six cows that wandered onto their farm.

That's really misleading. There is a base in Grand Forks, ND that houses several CBP (Customs and Border Patrol) Predator Drones, and they work with local law enforcement when asked to. So, more than likely, the drone is going to be flying home here anyway, and made a pass over some property. The facility where these things are flown from isn't some top secret bunker or anything, it's an office building on the air fo…

I don't think the comment is misleading at all. I think its pretty accurate and makes a succinct point about the current state of affairs.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#85

Post by knowaveragejoe »

bilbo0s wrote: post #74
bicknergseng wrote: post #65

In the interest of playing devil's advocate, couldn't the fact that we have 94 guns per 100 Americans have something to do with it? To be honest, the cops that work in Oakland, Compton, Detroit, Chicago, and many other cities effectively are fighting wars with heavily armed gangs, etc. I don't know that I buy the notion that police are the way they are today because of the Civil Rights Movement and Vietnam protests.…

Murders are WAY down from their peaks in the 90's. And that's across the board. So what violence are they encountering now, that they didn't encounter in... say ... '93 when they had no APC?

In continuing the devil's advocate angle here, there is a lot of scary stuff going on in Mexico right now. Some of that spilling over the border(or more realistically, the people and equipment are already here just unnoticed) is a possibility.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#86

Post by rayiner »

roc wrote: post #69
rayiner wrote: post #47

How did we get here? When gangs and organized crime turned the cities into war zones in the 1970's and 1980's.

Then why did the practice only catch on and spread like wild-fire after crime had already begun its plunge? And why, after crime has continued to drop dramatically, has SWAT-ification continued to increase (if not accelerated) rather than plateau or even drop in response?

Once you've built up an organization like that, it's hard to demobilize it. Public unions basically make it impossible to shrink police forces.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#87

Post by vijayr »

digitalengineer wrote: post #6
xroche wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re More Likely to be Killed by a Toddler than a Terrorist. ( http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/06/youre-more-likely-to-... )

From the article: "–You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist"... Wow, so we need a war against... The police? If we follow todays logic?

at this rate, we'll soon have something like "war of the day". Seems like the media likes us to be at "war" with something, all the time.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#88

Post by jlgreco »

hfsktr wrote: post #79
chc wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it was a 20-year-old college student with a 12-pack of water, and they failed to break her windows because she drove away when the crowd of large men ran up and started beating on her car, and then they charged her with assault.

Link for those who want the details: http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/state-regional/abc-asks-st...

"She and her roommates say they panicked, dialed 911 and tried to drive to a police station."

Christ, if that is somebodies genuine reaction after having an encounter with the police, then it is plainly the police involved that should be charged and arrested.

"one felony count of eluding police."

Fucking hell...

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#89

Post by rayiner »

nostromo wrote: post #80

Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high. (Those factors could have a causal relationship, but I doubt it's the primary cause based on reading "The Better Angels of Our Nature".) http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_chart_1950_2010... Having big budgets but less crime means these swollen budgets end up being wasted on a lot of "fun" things like military gear. (Did you know t…

> Crime is at an all-time low yet spending on police is near an all-time high.

Two words: public unions.

Re: Too Many Cops Are Told They’re Soldiers Fighting a War. How Did We Get Here?

#90

Post by ihsw »

vondur wrote: post #13

A large number of police officers are former military personnel. It's not surprising that this militarized philosophy is common among police today.

This is an awful generalization, there are many veterans that see this as excessive and abhorrent. They left the Middle East to trade the military environment for quiet(er) civilian life.
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