The NSA slide you haven’t seen • Hacker News Board

Re: The NSA slide you haven’t seen

#41

Post by lambda » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 5:40 PM UTC

kimlelly wrote: post #28

I'll say it again, because I was immediately downvoted into invisibility: You CAN NOT continue to use products and services by NSA companies like Microsoft - Yahoo - Google - Facebook - PalTalk - AOL - Skype - YouTube - or Apple and THEN turn around and BITCH AND CRY ABOUT LOSING YOUR RIGHTS AND PRIVACY. This is completely INSANE, you NEED TO WAKE UP! EDIT: Yeah, let the censuring begin again. You know what? When I l…

You were downvoted into invisibility because this type of discourse is not appropriate for Hacker News. Please, no shouting. No vague pronouncements to "wake up".

We try to have a reasoned, intelligent discourse here. There are many services provided by companies which may collaborate with the NSA or law enforcement which are pretty much unavoidable in modern society; the telephone network, the internet, and so on. Telling people that they need to completely disconnect from modern society or they shouldn't complain is unproductive.

Rather, we should be discussing realistic solutions. Pervasive end-to-end cryptography for everyday tasks would help. Better laws and legal oversight of both the government and of corporations would help. Protocols that encourage federated or decentralized use, rather than central storage that everything passes through unencrypted would help.

Re: The NSA slide you haven’t seen

#42

Post by valisystem » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 5:41 PM UTC

kimlelly wrote: post #28

I'll say it again, because I was immediately downvoted into invisibility: You CAN NOT continue to use products and services by NSA companies like Microsoft - Yahoo - Google - Facebook - PalTalk - AOL - Skype - YouTube - or Apple and THEN turn around and BITCH AND CRY ABOUT LOSING YOUR RIGHTS AND PRIVACY. This is completely INSANE, you NEED TO WAKE UP! EDIT: Yeah, let the censuring begin again. You know what? When I l…

Please stop. This adds nothing to the conversation. Don't worry, it's not your personal mission from saving the world from NSA spying, and if you want to do something relevant, talk to people individually in a open minded conversation, where you'll be able to calmly expose your facts.

Re: The NSA slide you haven’t seen

#43

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 5:41 PM UTC

kimlelly wrote: post #28

I'll say it again, because I was immediately downvoted into invisibility: You CAN NOT continue to use products and services by NSA companies like Microsoft - Yahoo - Google - Facebook - PalTalk - AOL - Skype - YouTube - or Apple and THEN turn around and BITCH AND CRY ABOUT LOSING YOUR RIGHTS AND PRIVACY. This is completely INSANE, you NEED TO WAKE UP! EDIT: Yeah, let the censuring begin again. You know what? When I l…

[deleted]

Re: The NSA slide you haven’t seen

#44

Post by jellicle » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 5:41 PM UTC

btipling wrote: post #2

> "collection directly from the servers" So either Snowden has incorrect slides, the slides are falsified, or everyone has been lying. Actual evidence of direct access would be better than these slides. I would like someone from Google, Facebook, et al to testify under oath that there is no direct access. Or maybe even the NSA, but we know they share inaccuracies under oath, so maybe that isn't worth so much.

They're getting the info directly from Google et al., but they don't have root on Google's servers. Google is required by law (CALEA, the Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act) to provide the ability for law enforcement to get information from them. This includes - required by law - the ability both to get stored data and to make real-time intercepts of new communications. Google is paid a fee to provide these services as well.

Google et al. have fully complied with this law. The FBI manages the government-end of the CALEA tapping capabilities. The NSA makes requests to the FBI, which passes them on to Google, which flips a switch and enables the tapping of user "xyzzy123". From then on, xyzzy123's stored data and new communications get sent to the FBI through the CALEA connection, which forwards them to the NSA. CALEA also requires the service provider to provide all sorts of metadata about the user.

This IS "direct access" to Google's servers. The denials about this have been carefully worded things that all access is supported by some sort of legal process, etc. The denials are non-denial denials. Yes, GOOGLE (et al.), not the NSA, flips the final switch which sends the data. But Google is required by law to do so, so....... And once the switch is flipped, all of the data is flowing automatically to the NSA.

I hope this is clear.

Re: The NSA slide you haven’t seen

#45

Post by kimlelly » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 5:42 PM UTC

brandonbloom wrote: post #37

kimlelly wrote: post #28

I'll say it again, because I was immediately downvoted into invisibility: You CAN NOT continue to use products and services by NSA companies like Microsoft - Yahoo - Google - Facebook - PalTalk - AOL - Skype - YouTube - or Apple and THEN turn around and BITCH AND CRY ABOUT LOSING YOUR RIGHTS AND PRIVACY. This is completely INSANE, you NEED TO WAKE UP! EDIT: Yeah, let the censuring begin again. You know what? When I l…

You're being down voted because your comment is entirely non-constructive. 1) Calling people insane won't win you any favors. 2) "WAKE UP" is an entirely useless platitude. 3) Simply not using "NSA companies" is completely impractical. Not everyone can afford to be a recluse eccentric by ignoring the largest software providers on the planet. Never mind the fact that switching to an alternative in mass would simply pr…

> Calling people insane won't win you any favors.

I say exactly what it IS. It IS INSANE.

I do NOT give a fuck about any favors. I don't care about any fucking karma points - we're turning into a turn-key totalitarian system, and people act like nothing has changed.

You got https://prism-break.org/

Now go and do your homework, I'm not your dad.

Re: The NSA slide you haven’t seen

#46

Post by cinquemb » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 5:42 PM UTC

brandonbloom wrote: post #37

kimlelly wrote: post #28

I'll say it again, because I was immediately downvoted into invisibility: You CAN NOT continue to use products and services by NSA companies like Microsoft - Yahoo - Google - Facebook - PalTalk - AOL - Skype - YouTube - or Apple and THEN turn around and BITCH AND CRY ABOUT LOSING YOUR RIGHTS AND PRIVACY. This is completely INSANE, you NEED TO WAKE UP! EDIT: Yeah, let the censuring begin again. You know what? When I l…

You're being down voted because your comment is entirely non-constructive. 1) Calling people insane won't win you any favors. 2) "WAKE UP" is an entirely useless platitude. 3) Simply not using "NSA companies" is completely impractical. Not everyone can afford to be a recluse eccentric by ignoring the largest software providers on the planet. Never mind the fact that switching to an alternative in mass would simply pr…

Not to mention they're completely tapping the cables too…

Guess it's time to find the resources to buy thousands of miles of fiber optics and hope the NSA, GCHQ, and the rest of the global surveillance state doesn't tap those! :D

Re: The NSA slide you haven’t seen

#47

Post by eddieroger » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 5:43 PM UTC

kimlelly wrote: post #28

I'll say it again, because I was immediately downvoted into invisibility: You CAN NOT continue to use products and services by NSA companies like Microsoft - Yahoo - Google - Facebook - PalTalk - AOL - Skype - YouTube - or Apple and THEN turn around and BITCH AND CRY ABOUT LOSING YOUR RIGHTS AND PRIVACY. This is completely INSANE, you NEED TO WAKE UP! EDIT: Yeah, let the censuring begin again. You know what? When I l…

So instead of repeating what was made invisible, make it a constructive comment. Instead of carrying a Windows Phone, Android or iPhone, which smartphone should I carry? How can I start getting my friends off Facebook so I can close my account without losing those connections?

I'm not trying to make the argument to stay, but without viable alternatives, people won't leave.

Re: The NSA slide you haven’t seen

#48

Post by yk » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 5:43 PM UTC

btipling wrote: post #2

> "collection directly from the servers" So either Snowden has incorrect slides, the slides are falsified, or everyone has been lying. Actual evidence of direct access would be better than these slides. I would like someone from Google, Facebook, et al to testify under oath that there is no direct access. Or maybe even the NSA, but we know they share inaccuracies under oath, so maybe that isn't worth so much.

Last time this came up I realized that Google is denies overspecificly everything that is not wiretapping. So my take is, that Google is saying "no direct access to the Google servers," as in no access to the actual boxes, while NSA and Guardian use servers in a somewhat looser sense. So my speculation is, that the NSA sits between the TLS reverse proxy and the actual servers.

( The mentionend post for reference and sources: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5965994 )

Re: The NSA slide you haven’t seen

#49

Post by moskie » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 5:43 PM UTC

btipling wrote: post #2

> "collection directly from the servers" So either Snowden has incorrect slides, the slides are falsified, or everyone has been lying. Actual evidence of direct access would be better than these slides. I would like someone from Google, Facebook, et al to testify under oath that there is no direct access. Or maybe even the NSA, but we know they share inaccuracies under oath, so maybe that isn't worth so much.

The real problem is that "direct access to servers" is not a specific term. Given the various definitions it could have, everyone could be being truthful.

Some would interpret "direct access" to mean root level access to their entire infrastructure, which sounds absurd to me, yet some people seem to believe that's what's happening. And it's my understanding that this is what Google, facebook, etc. have been denying. They could instead be giving "direct access" to an FTP server or some other portal set up to provide the requested data, meaning that Snowden and these slides are being truthful in that context.

I also think it could be argued that we all gain "direct access" to Google's servers every time we type "www.google.com" into a browser's address bar. It is just not a useful term, and should be replaced with something more specific in all these instances.

Re: The NSA slide you haven’t seen

#50

Post by indiefan » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 5:44 PM UTC

btipling wrote: post #2

> "collection directly from the servers" So either Snowden has incorrect slides, the slides are falsified, or everyone has been lying. Actual evidence of direct access would be better than these slides. I would like someone from Google, Facebook, et al to testify under oath that there is no direct access. Or maybe even the NSA, but we know they share inaccuracies under oath, so maybe that isn't worth so much.

I think it's also worth noting that the intended audience of these slides wasn't the general public/press. It's possible the purpose of using wording like "directly from the servers" was simply to delineate the origin of the data from the data pulled off the wire, not the mechanism of retrieval (e.g. some backdoor outside of the existing legal procedure for acquiring such data). I just picture the person who wrote these slides and chose those words either laughing their ass off, or face-palming right now. The companies involved have been pretty explicit (at great risk I might add by putting their founders' names on the denials) that there isn't "direct access" or anything like it.

The real story here is the "Upstream" collection. Just horribly irresponsible behavior for a steward of much of the Internet's infrastructure. Shameful.