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Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

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Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#131

Post by mcdougle »

rfnslyr wrote: post #14
jmduke wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, I think there's an ideal that lies in between "work the bare minimum to support yourself" and "work your entire life to the exclusion of other activities." If I was in your position, I would have tried to get a raise instead of lingering in my mainly automated position -- ideally into another position I can automate. I don't want work to vanish from my head as soon as I leave my office, because that means it did…

The work I did does not even remotely tie into what I am doing now nor did it warrant a second thought beyond the office. It was a contractor position. I had to import data sets into excel from other documents. All I did was export the previous doc into a CSV file and write a script to import it into excel. It was piss easy. Then I shipped off that data set to whatever team needed it. That's all I did. It was menial.…

Wow, your situation sounds amazingly similar to mine.

I do database integration for a large corporation -- moving data from other files and databases into one central database. Not the least bit challenging -- like you, I feel I can do the work in a fraction of the time, yet I'm required to be at my desk 40 hours a week.

Instead of getting depressed, though, I decided to make the necessary changes -- I'd start a freelancing business, and once it's successful I plan to quit this job.

I can't understand how people are like that you said -- "do decently in highschool -> pick a degree that you hope will pay out but don't really care about -> office life." I would be immensely depressed if I had to do this for 40 years with no way out. I have family members, friends, and an ex-girlfriend who think I'm being stupid or lazy. I just want more out of life than the drudgery of an office job.

But congratulations on what sounds like great success, and here's to me doing the same.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#132

Post by rwallace »

tdees40 wrote: post #121
rfnslyr wrote: post #3

When I worked at a large corporation, I nearly automated all of my work and I was called lazy. I'd do about an hour work a day, customize an existing script to process new data, then read for the remaining 6 hours. Co-workers called me a lazy nerd and proceeded to copy paste words into excel for 8 hours. Now I get to wake up at 12, smoke a joint, have a beer, take a shower, go for a walk with my dog, and then work on…

So every twenty-two year old I've ever met has told me how boring their entry-level corporate job was and how they just want to get out. Fine. But recognize that your job is boring because entry-level jobs are boring. They just exist to see if you're sane and you'll do work; once you prove yourself you get more interesting jobs. But most twenty-two year olds check out long before that happens.

My job at age twenty-two wasn't boring. My entry-level job at age seventeen wasn't boring. Granted that I got lucky, it still disproves the notion that this is a cosmic necessity.

That having been said, the relevant concept isn't boring, it's inefficient. Cleaning toilets is boring but someone has to do it anyway. What people are complaining about here isn't that they were doing boring but necessary grunt work, it's that they were doing unnecessary grunt work that could have been automated, that their time was being wasted.

If your job can be automated, automate it. If your manager reacts negatively (and not by pointing out problems you weren't aware of), that means he's incompetent, dishonest or both. In that case, start looking for another job. Life is too short to work for incompetent, dishonest people.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#133

Post by nostrademons »

paranoiacblack wrote: post #54

No, you stop glorifying "smart" work and shorter hours. Could it possibly be that people work at different paces, have different work ethic, and have different aspirations, but that they can't be compared at face value purely on the hours worked? Just because you work less hours, doesn't necessarily imply you're doing the work "smarter," it probably just means that you are only doing the required the work. It is poss…

Your argument extends beyond work. What do you think folks with a work/life balance do with the "life" part? Veg out? Play videogames all day long?

I've gone through periods of intense workaholisms, and I've gone through periods of laid-back socializing. I found that my work performance - as measured by promotions, salary, being put on important projects, and getting good jobs - actually improved when I let go and didn't focus so hard on work. Why? Because I came across as more confident and easier to work with. Because all the time spent hanging out with friends, going to parties (which I'm not sure I really enjoyed - I'm an introvert by nature), getting coffee with random strangers, etc. translated into improved social skills, which translated into better work performance. Because I had time to be curious and let my mind run wild, which is the birthplace of creativity.

There are certain intangibles that you miss when you're heads-down toward a goal, and you don't realize you've missed them until you've been working hard for 10 years and then seen people seemingly inexplicably pass you by with far less effort or technical skills. I know a lot of older scientists & technologists that are really bitter about this, forever complaining about how idiots rule the world, but I chose to accept that this is the reality and figure out why idiots rule the world, and what I was missing that prevented me from ruling the world too.

'Do you really think Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Larry Page, Steve Jobs, etc, got where they were by saying "well, I've done 35 hours of 'smart' work now, I need to stop an meditate?"'

Steve Jobs said pretty much exactly that: "I wish him the best, I really do. I just think he and Microsoft are a bit narrow. He'd be a broader guy if he had dropped acid once or gone off to an ashram when he was younger." -- On Bill Gates as quoted in "Creating Jobs" in The New York Times (12 January 1997)

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#134

Post by glogla »

workhere-io wrote: post #105
enraged_camel wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fetishizing hard work is a purely American phenomenon. Like many other parts of American culture, it has to do with the country's Puritan roots. Back in England, the Puritans were entirely city people. Even those who lived on the countryside were not farmers. So when they came to America, they had to work extra hard to learn farming and adopt that lifestyle, which was made even more difficult by the fact that the soi…

Fetishizing hard work is a purely American phenomenon True, if by "American" you mean "American, German, Swiss, Austrian, Swedish, Japanese, Victorian British, and Protestant". (I'm sure I left out a few, actually).

I do have some experience with Germans, and I don't think so. Germans are pros. They expect you to be professionals, the expect you to be prepared, on time, and do a good work, and they expect you not to waste anyone's time.

This, in the end, makes for a every different business culture than I remember from US -- the meetings are as short as possible. The managers actually listen to their engineers, because their expertise is what they are paying them for, and I have yet to meet a German Pointy Haired Boss, while experience both mine and of my friends with US or US-run corporations is that more than half managers are PHBes. They also don't care what you wear, don't care what you do after work, and the don't want unnecessarily long hours. They are efficient an serious about what they do, but they don't worship work the way USians and Japanese do, for example.

(I don't have experience with working with other cultures. Also, I'm not German.)

EDIT: But in no way would Germans require you to do more hours just for the sake of more hours. You owe the company you work for your best, professional effort. But you owe them 40 hours, not more.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#135

Post by ww520 »

nether wrote: post #70
rfnslyr wrote: post #3

When I worked at a large corporation, I nearly automated all of my work and I was called lazy. I'd do about an hour work a day, customize an existing script to process new data, then read for the remaining 6 hours. Co-workers called me a lazy nerd and proceeded to copy paste words into excel for 8 hours. Now I get to wake up at 12, smoke a joint, have a beer, take a shower, go for a walk with my dog, and then work on…

> When I worked at a large corporation, I nearly automated all of my work and I was called lazy. I'd do about an hour work a day, customize an existing script to process new data, then read for the remaining 6 hours. Co-workers called me a lazy nerd and proceeded to copy paste words into excel for 8 hours. Oh my god, I'm dealing with this now. I made a Python program that automated a lot of our Excel work. It reduced…

Time to go over your manager and show it to his boss. Low level line managers are often defined by the specific tasks his team is doing. If your script automates most of those tasks, the mission of the team has been eliminated and so is your manager's job. High level managers would love the productivity boost and the elimination of an entire team. And your work will be recognized.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#137

Post by RHSeeger »

corresation wrote: post #16
yangez wrote: post #5

> I have a friend who brags that he busts his * 60 hours a week driving a Coca-Cola delivery truck. Congratulations, I work 35 and make twice as much as he does. This is a straw man. The point is that if you worked 50 vs 35 hours at the same job, you'd simply get more done - even considering diminishing returns. There's a reason many hugely successful people are notorious workaholics - see Elon Musk, Oprah, Marissa M…

The point is that if you worked 50 vs 35 hours at the same job But isn't that, in many ways, the point? We need to optimize every hour of our life, because life (and in particular youth) really is short. If I choose to spend my life cutting grass with a pair of nail clippers, I can absolutely get more done spending 60 hours versus 35 hours. But you know, I'd rather pull out the driving lawn mower. That should be all…

> If I choose to spend my life cutting grass with a pair of nail clippers, I can absolutely get more done spending 60 hours versus 35 hours. But you know, I'd rather pull out the driving lawn mower. That should be all of our goals.

That's a bit of a straw man there. Yes, you can get more done using a riding lawnmower compared to the folks using clippers. However, once you're using a riding lawnmower you can get more done by putting more hours in.

Putting more hours in just to put more hours in isn't a good thing (otherwise doing it with clippers would be an optimal solution). Putting in more hours because it lets you accomplish more is, in many cases, a good thing.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#138

Post by silverbax88 »

paranoiacblack wrote: post #55
Ataub24 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. Hard work + smart work is great. Just don't tweet about it. Don't glorify it.

ITT, don't tweet about things you are proud of. It makes us regular people feel bad. ;(

If someone is proud enough of not being able to finish their work in a reasonable amount of time, then sure, they should let the world know about it. I know I won't hire them, either.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#139

Post by jmduke »

antitrust wrote: post #114
chasing wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon Musk, Oprah, Marissa Meyer, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey -- these are people who have been wildly over-compensated for their time. (Not that they don't deserve what they get, but they make huge amounts of money.) They work because they want to, and if they didn't they could retire tomorrow and live like kings/queens for the rest of their lives. Odds are, you're not in this camp. And never will be. (And sometimes I wo…

> Elon Musk, Oprah, Marissa Meyer, Bill Gates, Jack Dorsey Not to be a cynic, but except in the case of Bill Gates, it's not clear these people were not cases of being in the right place at the right time more than any specific brilliance.

It's not exactly Hacker News' oeuvre, but Oprah's story is pretty much the definition of "hustle". She climbed the ranks from radio DJ to assistant producer to assistant reporter to co-anchor to local morning show to national morning show with alarming celerity.

(I can't stand daytime television, but I think her position was won through a lot more than being at the right place at the right time.)

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#140

Post by jtbigwoo »

enraged_camel wrote: post #74
rfnslyr wrote: post #3

When I worked at a large corporation, I nearly automated all of my work and I was called lazy. I'd do about an hour work a day, customize an existing script to process new data, then read for the remaining 6 hours. Co-workers called me a lazy nerd and proceeded to copy paste words into excel for 8 hours. Now I get to wake up at 12, smoke a joint, have a beer, take a shower, go for a walk with my dog, and then work on…

Fetishizing hard work is a purely American phenomenon. Like many other parts of American culture, it has to do with the country's Puritan roots. Back in England, the Puritans were entirely city people. Even those who lived on the countryside were not farmers. So when they came to America, they had to work extra hard to learn farming and adopt that lifestyle, which was made even more difficult by the fact that the soi…

There's theology behind it as well.

Puritans believe in Calvinist predestination. In a nutshell, God has known you for eternity. God knows what's going to happen and what you're going to do. God decided whether you will be saved or not before you were born. Your salvation/damnation happens through God's grace, not through your good works.

This presents a dilemma: Why be a good, hard-working citizen if you can't affect the final outcome? The answer is they came up with is clever and I'm going to greatly oversimplify it.

Basically, the Puritans believed that there are clues as to whether you are going to be saved. If you look at a guy and he's a hardworking, serious fellow, he's probably going to be saved. If the guy is lazy and frivolous he's probably damned.

Thus your immortal soul depends on working as hard as possible even though it's God's grace that saves you and not your works.

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