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Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

alexstechthoughts.com

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Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#101

Post by RyanZAG »

edw519 wrote: post #19

For developers building something, the following are often true: Tweeting != Work TalkingAboutWork != Work Blogging != Work DoingSomethingInYourIDE does not necessarily = Work DoingSomethingInGithub does not necessarily = Work ThinkingButAppearingToBeDoingNothing may = Work Meetings != Work CodeReview may = Work Testing usually = Work DeliveringBuiltSoftware(AndItsPrerequisites) = Work HackerNews definitely != Work

I disagree here. If what you're saying is correct, then the following would be true:

  School != Work
  Learning new language != Work
  Testing new lang/framework != Work
This is blatantly false, because doing these things may enable you to create something you couldn't before. Let's take two people. Person A only does code. Person B both codes and learns new theory. Person A creates something in X hours. Person B spends X/2 hours learning and creates something in X/2 hours. You can't say A has worked twice as long as B - both have put in X hours and gotten a result.

And so,

  Learning new things on HackerNews = Work
  Blogging to reinforce your understanding and help co-workers = Work
  Setting up Github to speed compilations and testing = Work
  Meetings to discuss new features instead of re-doing the same 
    feature incorrectly 5 times = Work

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#102

Post by andyhmltn »

I totally agree with this. I'm part way through 'the 4 hour work week' by Tim Ferris. He's a bit off the deep end with things he says, but the general message he puts out is really good: Why would you slug 8 hours getting hardly anything done because you're so bored/unmotivated when you can walk in at 12 and get more done in a few hours than you would usually?

Sadly, most employers see Time = Money. The fact is that that isn't the case at all when people are working 9-5 5 days a week.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#103

Post by ramchip »

kyllo wrote: post #35
yangez wrote: post #5

> I have a friend who brags that he busts his * 60 hours a week driving a Coca-Cola delivery truck. Congratulations, I work 35 and make twice as much as he does. This is a straw man. The point is that if you worked 50 vs 35 hours at the same job, you'd simply get more done - even considering diminishing returns. There's a reason many hugely successful people are notorious workaholics - see Elon Musk, Oprah, Marissa M…

See, if working extra hours at your job will actually make you rich and/or influential, or if you just plain enjoy the heck out of your job, then you have a very good reason to do it. But I've also seen people put in 50-60 hours at a job where others put in 40 and get paid basically the same salary, without any increased possibility of promotion either. They were basically workaholics for the sake of it, or for appea…

I work this kind of hours right now, but I think you're wrong about the motives for most people. I don't care about security (not thinking of staying in the long term, no wife/kids to support) and I see no moral superiority in working more. But I do get strong pressure from above to stay late (X is urgent, "you're not leaving the office before Y is done", team calls being scheduled after hours regularly, etc), and there's always the social pressure. It feels bad going home early when I know teammates have to stay behind to finish their stuff.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#104

Post by antitrust »

paranoiacblack wrote: post #54

No, you stop glorifying "smart" work and shorter hours. Could it possibly be that people work at different paces, have different work ethic, and have different aspirations, but that they can't be compared at face value purely on the hours worked? Just because you work less hours, doesn't necessarily imply you're doing the work "smarter," it probably just means that you are only doing the required the work. It is poss…

> These are the same people who were high school dropouts or got kicked out of college for not doing the work.

Like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and every hacker known to humanity?

> Could it possibly be that people work at different paces

People who are less efficient at a certain job may be in the wrong career... and we shouldn't hold others back because some are slower.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#105

Post by workhere-io »

enraged_camel wrote: post #74
rfnslyr wrote: post #3

When I worked at a large corporation, I nearly automated all of my work and I was called lazy. I'd do about an hour work a day, customize an existing script to process new data, then read for the remaining 6 hours. Co-workers called me a lazy nerd and proceeded to copy paste words into excel for 8 hours. Now I get to wake up at 12, smoke a joint, have a beer, take a shower, go for a walk with my dog, and then work on…

Fetishizing hard work is a purely American phenomenon. Like many other parts of American culture, it has to do with the country's Puritan roots. Back in England, the Puritans were entirely city people. Even those who lived on the countryside were not farmers. So when they came to America, they had to work extra hard to learn farming and adopt that lifestyle, which was made even more difficult by the fact that the soi…

Fetishizing hard work is a purely American phenomenon

True, if by "American" you mean "American, German, Swiss, Austrian, Swedish, Japanese, Victorian British, and Protestant". (I'm sure I left out a few, actually).

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#107

Post by easy_rider »

RyanZAG wrote: post #101
edw519 wrote: post #19

For developers building something, the following are often true: Tweeting != Work TalkingAboutWork != Work Blogging != Work DoingSomethingInYourIDE does not necessarily = Work DoingSomethingInGithub does not necessarily = Work ThinkingButAppearingToBeDoingNothing may = Work Meetings != Work CodeReview may = Work Testing usually = Work DeliveringBuiltSoftware(AndItsPrerequisites) = Work HackerNews definitely != Work

I disagree here. If what you're saying is correct, then the following would be true: School != Work Learning new language != Work Testing new lang/framework != Work This is blatantly false, because doing these things may enable you to create something you couldn't before. Let's take two people. Person A only does code. Person B both codes and learns new theory. Person A creates something in X hours. Person B spends X…

This is an important discrepancy between the words "working" and "producing". And even then, reading HN can be productive in your clauses. So it ends up just being semantics.

However, in this article the author seemingly seems to want to say "Shipping Code", which is clearly just a small subset of work/being productive.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#108

Post by antitrust »

lazyjones wrote: post #25

Work isn't an end in itself, it's a means to an end. If you work hard and achieve your goals quicker (or at all) because of it, that's admirable as long as your trade-offs (spare time, family ...) are made consciously. If not, adjust your goals accordingly. Condemning hard work and long hours without any such considerations, is not constructive. Personally, I don't see a value in working as little as possible just to…

> Personally, I don't see a value in...[spending] more time watching TV or drinking beer, but if that is what you really want to do, fine ...

That's an entirely separate issue, isn't it?

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#109

Post by MortenK »

yangez wrote: post #5

> I have a friend who brags that he busts his * 60 hours a week driving a Coca-Cola delivery truck. Congratulations, I work 35 and make twice as much as he does. This is a straw man. The point is that if you worked 50 vs 35 hours at the same job, you'd simply get more done - even considering diminishing returns. There's a reason many hugely successful people are notorious workaholics - see Elon Musk, Oprah, Marissa M…

That's a very common argument and I agree it has merit. I think though that it's extremely dependent on what kind of work you do.

For example were you to program for 50-60+ hours a week consistently, your total output would be lower than a guy who worked only 40 hours, and by quite a big margin too. It's counter intuitive, but it's rather well documented and I think a lot of hardworking folks will recognize it from own experience.

Another downside is it's easy to neglect strategic outlook, when you are overworked and thus have your tunnel vision set on operations.

Re: Stop Glorifying Hard Work and Long Hours

#110

Post by 3am »

This struck me as cynical and lazy.

I agree narrowly with not "glorifying" hard work. There's no need to make a spectacle.

But I believe in what I do, and I believe in its importance. When I automate something, I use the time that I've cleared up to automate something else, improve the automation I've already written, or improve myself.

Granted, I'm not talking 100 hour weeks, but 8-10 hour days, then logging in at night after taking the evening for myself and weekends as necessary when there is a legit need.

I guess it's a question about how driven one is. It's sad this is on HN, I would probably not hire anyone that was content to automate their work and then phone it in for paycheck.

Then again, I have largely stayed out of the large corporate environment, too. YMMV.

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