"Ender's Game" movie faces a boycott • Hacker News Board

Re: "Ender's Game" movie faces a boycott

#91

Post by a3n » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 1:38 PM UTC

EnderMB wrote: post #16

It seems like a terrible thing to do to the hundreds of potentially nice people that worked hard on this movie. People will boycott this because of peer pressure, and to follow the crowd. People don't boycott the countless movies based on Roald Dahl books, even though it's very common knowledge that he held strong anti-semitic views. Yes, I think his views are terrible, but that's not going to stop me enjoying his wo…

I won't see the movie for the same reason I won't see a Tom Cruise (scientology cultist) movie anymore, I don't want to contribute anything to their voice. I know I won't silence them, that's not my point or even my wish. There are so many things to do in a day, I don't feel like I need to contribute to anyone's ability to spout or deceive, even in a miniscule way.

Re: "Ender's Game" movie faces a boycott

#92

Post by EnderMB » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 1:39 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #47

pron wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying that your view is wrong, but I should point out that it neuters almost every kind of political action. Almost every undertaking is carried out by a large group of people. Most of them are innocent. All of them are probably nice. But bad things are often done by nice people -- sometimes because they don't realize that they're bad. Sometimes because they don't care enough. There are no bond-villains in r…

Replying to myself: I haven't read Ender's Game, and I don't even know what it's about, but reading the Wikipedia article I've found something ironic: Radford's criticisms are echoed in John Kessel's essay "Creating the Innocent Killer: Ender's Game, Intention, and Morality." Kessel reasons that Card justifies Ender's righteous rage and violence: "Ender gets to strike out at his enemies and still remain morally clean…

You've not answered why his views mean that I cannot enjoy his work. If I'm served a sandwich by a racist, does this mean that I shouldn't eat it? I just don't see why I should care what every person who creates a product or body of work should think.

Re: "Ender's Game" movie faces a boycott

#93

Post by pron » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 2:15 PM UTC

EnderMB wrote: post #92

pron wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replying to myself: I haven't read Ender's Game, and I don't even know what it's about, but reading the Wikipedia article I've found something ironic: Radford's criticisms are echoed in John Kessel's essay "Creating the Innocent Killer: Ender's Game, Intention, and Morality." Kessel reasons that Card justifies Ender's righteous rage and violence: "Ender gets to strike out at his enemies and still remain morally clean…

You've not answered why his views mean that I cannot enjoy his work. If I'm served a sandwich by a racist, does this mean that I shouldn't eat it? I just don't see why I should care what every person who creates a product or body of work should think.

Of course you can enjoy his work, but that is a political statement, like almost everything else you do. If you think his views are abhorrent and unwelcome in the society you wish to build, you may have the moral obligation to make a statement to that effect by boycotting his work.

If a racist serves you a sandwich and you find racism unacceptable in society, then rejecting the sandwich is a political action saying that such views are so unacceptable that you're unwilling to put them aside even for the sake of a meal. Of course, this is a strong political expression, and perhaps not the right one for any view you don't like.

Mr. Card in his response basically says, yeah, I know my views aren't popular, but it's not a big deal. You should "tolerate" them. Now, that is the question you should ask yourself: should you argue with Mr. Card's but tolerate his views, or do you think such views should not be tolerated in society. If it's the latter, then you have an obligation not to let him, or others who work with him, define his or their beliefs as personal and unrelated to their work.

Re: "Ender's Game" movie faces a boycott

#94

Post by pron » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 2:26 PM UTC

ukoto wrote: post #36

Just like Chik-fil-A boycott? Oh wait they've seen record profits lately. Perhaps it's because the silent majority of people are sick of gay culture? Fortunately I live in Russia where we've recently and unanimously passed several bills defending traditional marriage.[1] I would much rather my child read an anti-gay author than a gay one, and Ender's Game is a classic that I will surely pass on after I have a real ma…

The point of marriage is to have kids and build a strong family

What are you, a Russian peasant? Did you grow up in a Kolkhoz? In a small village in Siberia? Is that a joke? "Yes, we Russians want good, strong, healthy family. We like our women with strong child-bearing hips". I hope the readers here don't get the impression that you represent Russian culture, so just to make things clear: just like in America, these views are more representative of Russian hillbilly rednecks. Russia has given us some of the most subversive, interesting, anti-bourgeois minds in all of Western culture.

Re: "Ender's Game" movie faces a boycott

#95

Post by ckozlowski » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 2:34 PM UTC

ukoto wrote: post #68

beedogs wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pathetic that these kinds of accounts are showing up even on HN.

Are you living in a cave? The opinions that I am espousing are fully supported by huge modern nations such as Russia. I just gave you a link showing the government's unanimous support of bills banning gay propaganda. So why do you assume I'm a troll? Does it shatter your fragile world view to realize many intelligent and sane individuals are against gay marriage, so you have to imagine me as a joke? That's what this…

"Tolerance" is being thrown around as though yours and OSC's arguments are equal, on the same lines as Apple vs. Android or Chocolate vs. Vanilla.

On one side lies liberty and civil rights, and the other is for disenfranchising people. It's a slanted argument. You're accusing one group of people of being inferior and immoral. It's a dig against other human beings, an assertion that some aren't as deserving.

One can debate methods or policy as to which is more effective, or whether or not designated hitters should be allowed in baseball. It's another thing entirely to assert that a whole range of people are unworthy of the same rights as others. Regardless of whether you or I prefer we live our lives in a different way, doesn't imply that somehow we should trample the liberties of others.

"Intelligent and sane" individuals don't tolerate segregation, racism, or the persecution of others based on their orientation. That your puppet legislature miraculously cast a unanimous vote for continued repression while all other governments across the world continue to roll back this anachronism speaks much for the state of "modern" Russia.

Re: "Ender's Game" movie faces a boycott

#96

Post by laumars » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 2:44 PM UTC

whiddershins wrote: post #71

laumars wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>* Just because I disagree with you and use my free speech to do so, does not give you the right to assume my opinions are coming from negative attributes.* Free speech is a responsibility - not a right to say dumb things just because you can.

Actually, yes, free speech includes the right to say dumb things just because you can. The responsibility is entirely optional. Otherwise it wouldn't be free speech. It would be called "responsible speech."

> Actually, yes, free speech includes the right to say dumb things just because you can. The responsibility is entirely optional. Otherwise it wouldn't be free speech. It would be called "responsible speech."

Actually no. There's defamation laws and such like that trump free speech.

People need to learn that free speech isn't an excuse for trolls and bigots to post unfounded and hateful remarks. "Free speech" doesn't mean "free pass to act like a dick and intentionally piss of whole subsections of society". Which is why I refer to it as a responsibility; as with all great power comes great responsibility.

Re: "Ender's Game" movie faces a boycott

#97

Post by dwb » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 2:45 PM UTC

ukoto wrote: post #36

Just like Chik-fil-A boycott? Oh wait they've seen record profits lately. Perhaps it's because the silent majority of people are sick of gay culture? Fortunately I live in Russia where we've recently and unanimously passed several bills defending traditional marriage.[1] I would much rather my child read an anti-gay author than a gay one, and Ender's Game is a classic that I will surely pass on after I have a real ma…

Naturally you'd be against hetrosexual marriages where at least one person is infertile then, or where they don't want to have children.

There has never been a single universal definition of marriage.

Re: "Ender's Game" movie faces a boycott

#98

Post by ajdecon » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 2:59 PM UTC

_b8r0 wrote: post #88

anu_gupta wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one of the greatest living science fiction authors Oh please. Ender's Game is a classic. The rest of his work is worse, and the recent Shadow stuff is execrable.

Rather than argue about whether or not he's one of (not the top one) the best living sci-fi authors, how about you post some sci-fi authors that are better than or as good as him? The only criteria is: They must be primarily known for sci-fi They must be alive today That way everyone on HN can benefit. I'll start with: * William Gibson * Ursula K. LeGuin * Charlie Stross * Margaret Atwood Anyone else care to add to t…

* Lois Bujold * Connie Willis * Vernor Vinge * Kim Stanley Robinson * Neal Stephenson * Larry Niven * Hell, even John Scalzi

If it weren't for the "alive" requirement, I'd include Iain M. Banks. :-( Regardless, I highly recommend anything Banks has written over anything of Card's.

If we're willing to include fantasy...

* Brandon Sanderson * Patrick Rothfuss * George R. R. Martin * Terry Pratchett * Mira Grant * Jim Butcher

This just from a brief glance over my most-recent on Goodreads. There is lots and lots of good Sci-Fi and Fantasy out there, and I'd be willing to argue any of these authors over Card in terms of quality. (Though -- to be fair -- I was monumentally unimpressed with Card even before I knew his politics.)

A few of the authors on my list have politics I disagree with as well, but they at least are much less obnoxious and hateful about it.

Re: "Ender's Game" movie faces a boycott

#99

Post by EnderMB » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 3:34 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #93

EnderMB wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've not answered why his views mean that I cannot enjoy his work. If I'm served a sandwich by a racist, does this mean that I shouldn't eat it? I just don't see why I should care what every person who creates a product or body of work should think.

Of course you can enjoy his work, but that is a political statement, like almost everything else you do. If you think his views are abhorrent and unwelcome in the society you wish to build, you may have the moral obligation to make a statement to that effect by boycotting his work. If a racist serves you a sandwich and you find racism unacceptable in society, then rejecting the sandwich is a political action saying t…

Why is it a political statement, and why should this affect how I enjoy his work? As I mentioned above, it doesn't stop people enjoying Roald Dahl's work, either because they don't know of his views or feel that his views are irrelevant to one of the countless millions of replica products they own that is attributed to his work.

I'm not trying to be purposely argumentative. I just cannot see why I should view it as a political statement, rather than a "I just want to see an awesome movie" statement. Also, why should people care that others should not see this movie?

Re: "Ender's Game" movie faces a boycott

#100

Post by EnderMB » Wed, Jul 10, 2013, 3:38 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #24

EnderMB wrote: post #16

It seems like a terrible thing to do to the hundreds of potentially nice people that worked hard on this movie. People will boycott this because of peer pressure, and to follow the crowd. People don't boycott the countless movies based on Roald Dahl books, even though it's very common knowledge that he held strong anti-semitic views. Yes, I think his views are terrible, but that's not going to stop me enjoying his wo…

Nice people will know for next time not to work on projects that stand to enrich bigoted fuckheads. Alternately, these nice people could have Googled him before agreeing to work with the guy.

It's Hollywood. Chances are their work has already enriched the lives of some bigoted fuckheads. Why single out a product based on another product by a noted homophobe when we won't do it to numerous others?