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Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

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Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#241

Post by kleinsch »

ajross wrote: post #191
pdx wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a father of toddlers, (3 and 5), I despise the attitude of many bicyclists on sidewalks and public paths. You think you can't seriously hurt somebody on a bike? It depends on the someone you hit. Slow down when you see a pedestrian, as there might be others that you don't see. Don't ring your little bell at them as you whip past at 20mph, just slow down and show some common courtesy like a real human person.

This doesn't seem to be responsive. Your kids (or mine), no matter how heart-tugging a debate example they may be, will still be hurt less from a collision with a bicycle than the cyclist will be from a collision with my car. To argue otherwise, as Yver did above, is silly and counterproductive.

Arguing the degree of hurt is pointless - you can kill pedestrians if you hit them with your bike.

http://blogs.kqed.org/newsfix/2013/03/07/san-francisco-bicyc...

http://dcist.com/2012/06/woman_dies_after_being_hit_by_cycli...

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#242

Post by oinksoft »

tptacek wrote: post #193
oinksoft wrote: post #64

The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, they are given lip service at best in driver education and there is little attempt made at going after motorists who drive aggressively around them. As a result, you put yourself at great risk of life and limb when you ride on a road like this one: http://www.mapquest.com/?version=1.0&hk=6-LvU0mhA3 (Hillandale Rd, Durham, NC) I accomplish all of my…

It doesn't look like this tragedy had anything to do with respect for bicyclists; the driver, who could likely at minimum be charged with manslaughter, drove off the road to avoid traffic and fled the scene of the accident. I don't disagree with what I think is the spirit of your comment, which is that there's probably a policy response to this tragedy. To me, it highlights the all-to-lax nature of our moving violati…

I didn't intend to highlight lack of respect so much as lack of general awareness amongst motorists of the rights of bicyclists as road vehicles. In the worst cases, this manifests itself in more aggressive responses. This here was a case of negligence, not malice.

Neither source linked from the article says that the driver went off-road, both say that Seth Vidal was traveling "on Hillandale Road," that he was "a bicyclist traveling north on Hillandale Road." It makes no sense for a bicycle advocate and experienced rider to be riding off-road, so I will have to see a source to believe that.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#243

Post by clarky07 »

moskie wrote: post #32
bti wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. is huge and spread out. Not everyone has the luxury of having all their needs within a 10 minute bike ride. We need that automobile infrastructure to get places so it makes sense that it is prioritized.

But you've got it backwards. The point is that the "spread out" nature you're talking about was created with the idea in mind that everyone will have a car and will drive. That was a conscious decision, and not a necessary one. Also realize that it was by design that you don't view having a car to be the luxury.

Or it could be that not everyone wants to live in a crowded city in a small apartment. Some people prefer to be a bit more spread out, perhaps near nature.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#244

Post by baddox »

jberryman wrote: post #165
baddox wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, I tend to agree, but I can see both sides. There is also very little (and, as far as I know, zero required) bicyclist education, and many bicyclists make little attempt to drive predictably and safely either out of boldness or ignorance. Similarly, while stricter rules and enforcement for automobile drivers is warranted, I think the same goes for…

> but I can see both sides. This isn't a "on the one hand, on the other" issue. Even the most foolish and aggressive cyclist is almost never endangering the safety of drivers around him, even indirectly. Yet all it takes is a nudge, honk, door opening, unsignaled turn, etc. to kill a cyclist. Bicycle etiquette is for all practical purposes not a public safety issue, and IMHO responses of the "but bicyclists can be ru…

> Even the most foolish and aggressive cyclist is almost never endangering the safety of drivers around him, even indirectly.

I highly doubt that. I have seen dozens of bicyclists cause absolute chaos in traffic. Granted, I've never seen any collisions, but I can't imagine that the chaos I've seen is "safe" compared to the normal flow of traffic.

> Yet all it takes is a nudge, honk, door opening, unsignaled turn, etc. to kill a cyclist.

True, but if your implication is that bicyclists should be able to freely use roads because of how vulnerable they are, then pedestrians should also be able to freely use roads.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#245

Post by kylec »

gamache wrote: post #144
baddox wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, I tend to agree, but I can see both sides. There is also very little (and, as far as I know, zero required) bicyclist education, and many bicyclists make little attempt to drive predictably and safely either out of boldness or ignorance. Similarly, while stricter rules and enforcement for automobile drivers is warranted, I think the same goes for…

I don't think it's appropriate to consider bicycles as "first-class vehicles" in all situations, namely in the dangerous situations you list (speed limits >~25mph, multiple automobile lanes, etc.). Driving a motor vehicle on a road is a privilege. This privilege is represented by a motor vehicle operator's license, which may be revoked by the state for a variety of reasons. Riding a bicycle on a non-Interstate public…

And yet Seth Vidal is dead, and the driver remains alive.

In an ideal world bicycles are given equal respect and stature on the roads. In practice, however, riders have a lot more to lose in a collision with a car.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#246

Post by smsm42 »

oinksoft wrote: post #64

The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, they are given lip service at best in driver education and there is little attempt made at going after motorists who drive aggressively around them. As a result, you put yourself at great risk of life and limb when you ride on a road like this one: http://www.mapquest.com/?version=1.0&hk=6-LvU0mhA3 (Hillandale Rd, Durham, NC) I accomplish all of my…

When I've been in Munich, I've seen they have there dedicated lanes for bike traffic, which are not a part of general street and designed so that cars never go there - they are part of the same space as pedestrian walks but pedestrians are not supposed to walk there either - it is an exclusive bike space, with higher barriers for bigger danger (cars) and separation from lower danger (pedestrians). I think it works much better than what is here in California, where bicyclists share space on the road with cars. Each time I drive by a cyclist on the road, I can't help thinking how small mistake it would take - either from his/her side or from driver's side - for a tragedy to happen. That's why I am very reluctant to go on such shared spaces when I'm biking - I'd much prefer to have a space of a sidewalk than on a road.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#247

Post by alxndr »

malandrew wrote: post #130
oinksoft wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that a cyclist flaunting traffic laws should always be liable for accidents, but the last thing we need if we want to encourage bicycling is nanny-state policing of proper signaling and such. Any city that has resources for this ought to take a hard look at the size of their police force. Your idea of banning cycle traffic on >25mph roads is misguided. Most cyclists have no trouble traveling at a speed greate…

It's pretty obvious when a bicyclist is at fault and they are often held responsible when they cause an accident. In the case of most city accidents, police routinely pull video from nearby buildings to establish fault. In fact, just this morning a lady got hit and put in the ICU at the corner of King St and 3rd in San Francisco, right near the ballpark. Yolanda, the lady who manages the front desk, was reviewing the…

> It's pretty obvious when a bicyclist is at fault and they are often held responsible when they cause an accident. In the case of most city accidents, police routinely pull video from nearby buildings to establish fault.

This is completely untrue, at least in NYC.

"Historically, nearly half of motorists who kill a New York City pedestrian or cyclist do not receive so much as a citation for careless driving."

http://www.streetsblog.org/2012/08/03/nypd-7371-pedestrians-...

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#248

Post by ferdo »

antitrust wrote: post #222
ferdo wrote: post #62

Seth was also outspoken and political. In the political environment in which Americans live, which seems to resemble the old Soviet system in some ways, one cannot discount the possibility of it not being an accident.

> In the political environment in which Americans live, which seems to resemble the old Soviet system in some ways, Can you tell us more about this?

As only one example, Michael Hastings is a warning. Political dissent and protest are now being met with death and prison. Barrett Brown is another example. Smart, literate and technically proficient outspoken people are in danger if they fall afoul of the Powers That Be.

I'm not saying that this is what happened to Seth. I'm merely saying that it can't be discounted.

> I answered what I always answer: “I’m going to write a story; some of the stuff you’ll like, some of the stuff you probably won’t like.

> Jake came up to me. “We’ll hunt you down and kill you if we don’t like what you write,” he said. C. will hunt you down and kill you.”

> The Operators: The Wild and Terrifying Inside Story of America's War in Afghanistan

> by Michael Hastings

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#249

Post by corin_ »

sampo wrote: post #233
corin_ wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're driving a long and a bike pulls out suddenly in front of you, unless you have the attitude of "fuck it, just run them over" then yes, a bike can still be a massive threat to a car.

Also a pedestrian, or a jogger, might pull out suddenly in front of you. But this is no ground to make transport by foot a privilege.

I'm a cyclist who has never sat behind the wheel of a car (well I'm lazy now so more of a taxi-ist, but a cyclist at heart) and completely agree with you. But that doesn't change the fact that yes, while cars may be far more dangerous to bikes than the other way around, a bike still can be very dangerous to a car.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#250

Post by baddox »

jowiar wrote: post #185
aroch wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most cyclists have no trouble traveling at a speed greater than 25mph, even uphill I doubt that, maybe in burst/sprint but not sustained...Hell, the average top speeds in the Tour de France during the sprints is barely 25mph and those are top athletes. >but the last thing we need if we want to encourage bicycling is nanny-state policing of proper signaling and such. So we should enforce traffic laws on cars but not…

Be negligent on a bicycle and a vast majority of the life and limb you are risking is your own. Be negligent in a car and you're putting in mortal danger every other driver and cyclist on the road as well as every pedestrian in the vicinity. The difference between 25lb of metal powered by glutes and quads and 1.5 tons of metal with a tank of flammable liquid and a 200 hp engine is important.

> Be negligent on a bicycle and a vast majority of the life and limb you are risking is your own.

I don't think that's true. I haven't personally witnessed any accidents, and I admittedly don't have any data to cite, but I have witnessed many bicyclists cause complete chaos in busy traffic.

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