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Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

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Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#171

Post by pessimizer »

aroch wrote: post #128
oinksoft wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that a cyclist flaunting traffic laws should always be liable for accidents, but the last thing we need if we want to encourage bicycling is nanny-state policing of proper signaling and such. Any city that has resources for this ought to take a hard look at the size of their police force. Your idea of banning cycle traffic on >25mph roads is misguided. Most cyclists have no trouble traveling at a speed greate…

>Most cyclists have no trouble traveling at a speed greater than 25mph, even uphill I doubt that, maybe in burst/sprint but not sustained...Hell, the average top speeds in the Tour de France during the sprints is barely 25mph and those are top athletes. >but the last thing we need if we want to encourage bicycling is nanny-state policing of proper signaling and such. So we should enforce traffic laws on cars but not…

It's myopic not to see the differences between the two vehicles, not to insist that they be taken into consideration if relevant.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#172

Post by pdx »

ajross wrote: post #126
Yver wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also injure a pedestrian. Do you realize that you can hurt an elderly person on the sidewalk with a bike as much as a car can hurt you on the road?

You can surely hurt a pedestrian while riding on the sidewalk (or through a crosswalk, for that matter). You surely can not hurt them "as much as" a car in the traffic lanes will hurt a cyclist in a much faster collision with a much heavier object. That assertion is just silly.

As a father of toddlers, (3 and 5), I despise the attitude of many bicyclists on sidewalks and public paths.

You think you can't seriously hurt somebody on a bike? It depends on the someone you hit. Slow down when you see a pedestrian, as there might be others that you don't see. Don't ring your little bell at them as you whip past at 20mph, just slow down and show some common courtesy like a real human person.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#173

Post by aroch »

lutorm wrote: post #153
aroch wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same token, many bicyclists freely ignore traffic laws too. They don't properly stop at stop signs or intersections (on red or yellow) and they act like pedestrians when it suits them. >[Slam] their brakes without noticing my bike behind them You're a vehicle when you ride on the streets, it's your responsibility to maintain a safe distance from the person in front of you and to react to their brake lights. Th…

Incorrect. You are not allowed to slam on your brakes for no good reason. It's of course very hard to prove that you did. (This does not relieve the follower from maintaining a safe distance, but you could be held partially at fault.) Also, what about if you merge into my lane right in front of me and then slam on your brakes? In that case, you made it impossible for me to maintain a safe distance.

> You are not allowed to slam on your brakes for no good reason

I never said no good reason...

>hat about if you merge into my lane right in front of me and then slam on your brakes? In that case, you made it impossible for me to maintain a safe distance.

This has been arbitrated in court (at least in my neck of the woods), if you merge and in doing so cause an accident you're a fault. The entire law system is setup to relate to the actions that a "reasonable" person would do. It isn't reasonable to expect the person who you've just merged in front of to immediately be at a safe distance (in fact you, the merger, are responsible for merging in a way that's safe.)

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#174

Post by oinksoft »

caycep wrote: post #164
adrr wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Santa Monica has the same rules. I biked to worked for two months straight, my car never left the garage until one day someone didn't like the fact i was in the middle of the lane. Accelerated at me, and then tried to run me off the road at 35+ mph on a small street. Tired of people honking at me or cutting me off so i quit riding my bike. Not worth my life. City really needs to take every 4th or 5th street and make…

that sounds illegal - could you have reported his license? Something under assault using a vehicle or attempted manslaughter?

I have had somebody follow me aggressively (in a car) with seeming intent to main before and it is a terrifying experience. They pursued me at 70mph in a 30mph zone. It was my second day driving a manual transmission and I accidentally tapped my horn with an old Ford Explorer behind me (no cars in front) as I was trying to shift into first gear to turn left out of a lot. A man exited the SUV at a red light and I ran it, hauled my ass home. And that's the story of how I learned to throw it into first gear quickly.

When it's just you and the other car on the road, there's no way of proving what happened, you just have to hope there were witnesses, or god forbid you do get run off the road, that the accident scene has enough evidence to show criminal intent.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#175

Post by jberryman »

_neil wrote: post #129
cobrausn wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like an incredibly bad idea. This pushes even more responsibility onto the person operating several thousand pounds of metal, assuming they will make the correct snap judgement when a bike they didn't see rides out in front of them. It seems to me the bike riders have a lot more to lose at that stop sign than any car driver who doesn't see the bike.

This is getting further off-topic, but I generally treat stop signs as a yield when I'm riding. I approach slowly and if there is a car stopped/nearing the intersection, I will absolutely yield to them as I would in a car. The only difference is that, if possible, I will try to avoid wasting energy by stopping entirely. This is both for my own benefit and for those who may come after me. If I can maintain some of my…

I do the same thing. One thing I'm careful about now though is always slowing down in acknowledgement of the stop sign, even if there's no one in the other directions. I started doing that after I noticed bikers bringing cars along with them when pedaling through a stop (presumably because the cars didn't notice the stop).

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#176

Post by gamache »

colanderman wrote: post #166
gamache wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's appropriate to consider bicycles as "first-class vehicles" in all situations, namely in the dangerous situations you list (speed limits >~25mph, multiple automobile lanes, etc.). Driving a motor vehicle on a road is a privilege. This privilege is represented by a motor vehicle operator's license, which may be revoked by the state for a variety of reasons. Riding a bicycle on a non-Interstate public…

> Riding a bicycle on a non-Interstate public road is a right. That's a bold claim. Citation?

The actual language differs from state to state, but in general there is no attempt by the states to revoke certain individuals' right of riding a bicycle. (For example, being pulled over for drunk bicycling can get your driver's license suspended, but does not affect bicycling.)

Corollary: When states declare that bicycles on public roads are subject to the same rules and responsibilities as cars (and most/all states do), sanctions on bicycling are not available as penalties.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#177

Post by shrikant »

oinksoft wrote: post #118
baddox wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, I tend to agree, but I can see both sides. There is also very little (and, as far as I know, zero required) bicyclist education, and many bicyclists make little attempt to drive predictably and safely either out of boldness or ignorance. Similarly, while stricter rules and enforcement for automobile drivers is warranted, I think the same goes for…

I think that a cyclist flaunting traffic laws should always be liable for accidents, but the last thing we need if we want to encourage bicycling is nanny-state policing of proper signaling and such. Any city that has resources for this ought to take a hard look at the size of their police force. Your idea of banning cycle traffic on >25mph roads is misguided. Most cyclists have no trouble traveling at a speed greate…

OT: you mean flouting traffic laws. "Flaunting" means to show off.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#178

Post by corin_ »

vanderZwan wrote: post #151
baddox wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, I tend to agree, but I can see both sides. There is also very little (and, as far as I know, zero required) bicyclist education, and many bicyclists make little attempt to drive predictably and safely either out of boldness or ignorance. Similarly, while stricter rules and enforcement for automobile drivers is warranted, I think the same goes for…

> I tend to agree, but I can see both sides. Like I said in the other comment: a bike is never a threat to a car. A car is always a threat to a bike. While your points are valid, saying that that is looking at "both sides" is an inappropriate way of describing the situation.

If you're driving a long and a bike pulls out suddenly in front of you, unless you have the attitude of "fuck it, just run them over" then yes, a bike can still be a massive threat to a car.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#179

Post by tylermac1 »

xanderstrike wrote: post #48
tylermac1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we can find a viable, safer alternative. The automobile has been a staple of growth of modern society since it's invention. There's no other current form of transportation that can be a drop in fit. But in reality, no matter the form of transportation, there will be deaths involved, be it accidental or not. It's a fact of life. Sad, but inevitable.

The bicycle could have been, and is in many cities (see Copenhagen or Amsterdam). The decision to include the automobile as "a staple of growth in modern society" is the reason it isn't a drop in fit. We designed our cities around dangerous, pollution producing power tools, and in doing so squashed out any hope of implementing something better. If you think about it, the only reason the bicycle isn't a safe alternati…

I agree that in a dense urban environment, the bicycle could be a much better fit for personal transportation. But as someone who has lived in smaller Midwestern cities, many more lives that some people care to think about depend on the automobile as a livelihood. Even in smaller metro areas, a bicycle would not be a viable option in the least. Cities like Copenhagen and Amsterdam precede automobiles by hundreds of years, and are a better fit for bicycles and smaller personal travel mediums. That's where the disparity between the how the US travel system is structured compared to one with a much longer and storied history, like Europe.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#180

Post by drumdance »

gamache wrote: post #144
baddox wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, I tend to agree, but I can see both sides. There is also very little (and, as far as I know, zero required) bicyclist education, and many bicyclists make little attempt to drive predictably and safely either out of boldness or ignorance. Similarly, while stricter rules and enforcement for automobile drivers is warranted, I think the same goes for…

I don't think it's appropriate to consider bicycles as "first-class vehicles" in all situations, namely in the dangerous situations you list (speed limits >~25mph, multiple automobile lanes, etc.). Driving a motor vehicle on a road is a privilege. This privilege is represented by a motor vehicle operator's license, which may be revoked by the state for a variety of reasons. Riding a bicycle on a non-Interstate public…

There's a middle ground. In Boulder at least, a bicyclist can be ticketed for running a red light, going the wrong way on one-way etc.
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