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Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

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Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#151

Post by vanderZwan »

baddox wrote: post #102
oinksoft wrote: post #64

The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, they are given lip service at best in driver education and there is little attempt made at going after motorists who drive aggressively around them. As a result, you put yourself at great risk of life and limb when you ride on a road like this one: http://www.mapquest.com/?version=1.0&hk=6-LvU0mhA3 (Hillandale Rd, Durham, NC) I accomplish all of my…

> The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, I tend to agree, but I can see both sides. There is also very little (and, as far as I know, zero required) bicyclist education, and many bicyclists make little attempt to drive predictably and safely either out of boldness or ignorance. Similarly, while stricter rules and enforcement for automobile drivers is warranted, I think the same goes for…

> I tend to agree, but I can see both sides.

Like I said in the other comment: a bike is never a threat to a car. A car is always a threat to a bike. While your points are valid, saying that that is looking at "both sides" is an inappropriate way of describing the situation.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#152

Post by revelation »

cobrausn wrote: post #69
notatoad wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. In some regions cyclists are legally allowed to treat a stop sign as a yield sign.

This sounds like an incredibly bad idea. This pushes even more responsibility onto the person operating several thousand pounds of metal, assuming they will make the correct snap judgement when a bike they didn't see rides out in front of them. It seems to me the bike riders have a lot more to lose at that stop sign than any car driver who doesn't see the bike.

The biggest thing I lose stopping at a stop sign is momentum. Accelerating from zero is much more difficult than to keep going at 10km/h. For everything else, I have my eyes.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#153

Post by lutorm »

aroch wrote: post #115
oinksoft wrote: post #64

The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, they are given lip service at best in driver education and there is little attempt made at going after motorists who drive aggressively around them. As a result, you put yourself at great risk of life and limb when you ride on a road like this one: http://www.mapquest.com/?version=1.0&hk=6-LvU0mhA3 (Hillandale Rd, Durham, NC) I accomplish all of my…

By the same token, many bicyclists freely ignore traffic laws too. They don't properly stop at stop signs or intersections (on red or yellow) and they act like pedestrians when it suits them. >[Slam] their brakes without noticing my bike behind them You're a vehicle when you ride on the streets, it's your responsibility to maintain a safe distance from the person in front of you and to react to their brake lights. Th…

Incorrect. You are not allowed to slam on your brakes for no good reason. It's of course very hard to prove that you did. (This does not relieve the follower from maintaining a safe distance, but you could be held partially at fault.)

Also, what about if you merge into my lane right in front of me and then slam on your brakes? In that case, you made it impossible for me to maintain a safe distance.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#154

Post by ejs »

malandrew wrote: post #125
ejs wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are often killed riding on sidewalks, I avoid riding on them because they are very dangerous wherever there is a driveway - cars move to the edge of the street without expecting a vehicle moving at 15mph+ on the sidewalk.

Citation. I mean I know it does happen, but I'm extremely skeptical of the use of the word "often" here.

http://www.enhancements.org/download/trb/1636-011.PDF

"The most interesting result of the analysis was the finding that sidewalk cyclists have higher event rates on roads than nonsidewalk cyclists."

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#155

Post by lutorm »

malandrew wrote: post #137
oinksoft wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point. If the speed limits are not too high though, you might want to try riding on the roads and using some tactics that help me (at least): * If you hear a car coming up on you, always turn your head and look back at the car so that they know you see them and because faces command attention. This quick look also gives you an idea of how much the driver notices you, that is, if you have to bail in a hurry…

Upvote for staying near the center of the road, but remember that that is only permitted on 14-15+ ft wide lanes (don't worry, the overwhelming majority of city lanes are not this wide). If the lane is wider than that, you should stay to the right (but you are within your right to stay outside the door zone)

IIRC, CA law says bicyclists should ride as far to the right as practicable. I think it even says bicyclists may be justified in taking the entire lane if conditions so require.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#156

Post by oinksoft »

discostrings wrote: post #139
oinksoft wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. If I'm a motorist, moving at speed, and I slam my brakes to grab that nifty parking spot, I am liable. Not the person who rear-ends me.

In every U.S. jurisdiction I'm familiar with, the person doing the rear-ending is liable, not the person who brakes unexpectedly. The idea is that everyone should leave stopping distance. In heavy traffic, people generally don't leave this distance, but it's still the law.

I was wrong about liability (the rear-ender is liable, unless you can prove negligence or recklessness on the part of the driver ahead), but I run a serious hazard of stopping short myself as a cyclist that the motorist does not (except for motorcyclists). There is a good chance I will be killed by the car or truck behind me. This is why, while I have always been able to stop my bicycle in time, it is a frightening experience in traffic.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#157

Post by malandrew »

Zaytes wrote: post #92
clicks wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is interesting, but probably not a viable solution for _today_. Something like an always-on dashcam [1] would be the way to go. I'm thinking there are some out there whose energy is generated by pedaling your bike. yum was good software. Vidal will be missed. Rob Levin, lilo (founder) of FreeNode, was another person lost to a hit and run accident while he was riding his bike. What can be done to make biking safe…

>What can be done to make biking more safer in the states? Require more stringent testing to grant drivers licenses. It seems as though issuing DLs is treated too much as a revenue stream and not enough as an education/screening process.

I wouldn't mind using a rule where a certain number of DLs are permitted each year and that only the safest drivers get them. They are a responsibility not a right, yet we treat it like a right. Most likely self-driving cars will save us first, but if not some sort of leveling up system that awards points for things such as adherence to the speed limit or aggressiveness in acceleration/deceleration could be useful. All this information could be managed via a black box in your car. If you aren't in the top 80% or so, you shouldn't be allowed to drive.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#158

Post by aroch »

lutorm wrote: post #148
aroch wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most cyclists have no trouble traveling at a speed greater than 25mph, even uphill I doubt that, maybe in burst/sprint but not sustained...Hell, the average top speeds in the Tour de France during the sprints is barely 25mph and those are top athletes. >but the last thing we need if we want to encourage bicycling is nanny-state policing of proper signaling and such. So we should enforce traffic laws on cars but not…

No, laws that are appropriate for cars may not be appropriate for bicycles. Stop signs, for example. There is no justification for requiring bicyclists to come to a complete stop to safely cross an intersection. (There isn't for cars, either, but that's a separate issue.)

No, you don't get to have it both ways. I have routinely seen bikes dash through stop signs and lights when they don't have right of way. On more than one occasion of seen said cyclist get injured; the person driving the car gets blamed despite the bicyclist breaking the law. This is entirely unacceptable and dangerous, I don't care if you don't think the laws make sense every vehicle has to follow them.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#159

Post by davidcuddeback »

aroch wrote: post #115
oinksoft wrote: post #64

The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, they are given lip service at best in driver education and there is little attempt made at going after motorists who drive aggressively around them. As a result, you put yourself at great risk of life and limb when you ride on a road like this one: http://www.mapquest.com/?version=1.0&hk=6-LvU0mhA3 (Hillandale Rd, Durham, NC) I accomplish all of my…

By the same token, many bicyclists freely ignore traffic laws too. They don't properly stop at stop signs or intersections (on red or yellow) and they act like pedestrians when it suits them. >[Slam] their brakes without noticing my bike behind them You're a vehicle when you ride on the streets, it's your responsibility to maintain a safe distance from the person in front of you and to react to their brake lights. Th…

I'm a cyclist, and it irks me a little bit every time I see cyclists act as if the rules don't apply to them. In San Francisco, this happens almost every day.

As a pedestrian, I've almost been struck a few times by cyclists running red lights while crossing Market Street. Most of those cyclists yell at me for having the audacity to be in their way. In San Francisco, it seems that I'm the exception for actually stopping at red lights on a bicycle.

Re: Seth Vidal, creator of yum, killed in hit and run accident

#160

Post by dfc »

gamache wrote: post #144
baddox wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sad truth is that while bicycles should be respected as vehicles, I tend to agree, but I can see both sides. There is also very little (and, as far as I know, zero required) bicyclist education, and many bicyclists make little attempt to drive predictably and safely either out of boldness or ignorance. Similarly, while stricter rules and enforcement for automobile drivers is warranted, I think the same goes for…

I don't think it's appropriate to consider bicycles as "first-class vehicles" in all situations, namely in the dangerous situations you list (speed limits >~25mph, multiple automobile lanes, etc.). Driving a motor vehicle on a road is a privilege. This privilege is represented by a motor vehicle operator's license, which may be revoked by the state for a variety of reasons. Riding a bicycle on a non-Interstate public…

That is an interesting analysis, a right to do x trumps the privilege to do y. Is this the way the law treats circumstances like this?

I am not disagreeing, genuinely curious about the argument

ADDED: I did a little research and found other examples of privilege vs. right[1].

[1] http://constitution.org/cmt/right-privilege.htm

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