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Firefox OS devices officially released

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Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#71
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fully agree. It is great that Mozilla is fighting for openness, but in terms of what street joe and street jane want, I think it will join WebOS in a few months. Given my experience in telecommunications I don't see how sales are going to push these devices out of the shop when users come asking for other OSs.

One big difference from WebOS is that the company behind FirefoxOS will not likely abandon it within 12 months of kicking it off. 4th or 5th place in the market might represent enough scale to be considered a "success" as far as Mozilla is concerned.

Those devices still need to be built. So a 4th or 5th place might not generate enough revenue to pay them.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#72
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey PommeDeTerre, Allow me to give a different perspective here. While in many other mobile operating systems you can build apps with HTML (saying HTML from now on but meaning HTML/CSS/JS, ok?), the API the vendors make available don't cover the same features as what is native on that platform. We can say that Firefox OS is important because of the following things: MAKING THE WEB A FIRST CLASS CITIZEN Makes the web…

I love what Mozilla is trying to accomplish with Firefox OS. I hope it succeeds, and I don't want to be negative. But I'm not convinced about this part: > Firefox OS offers the best cost-benefit ratio once you think about how much performance you have against your hardware specs. If you pick the same low-end hardware with Android or Firefox OS, Android will have a worse experience, not because Android is broken in an…

Your points aren't really strong either.

   > * Markup language processor and layout engine designed
       for hypertext documents, not UIs
Unlike XML which Andorid uses, right? I mean XML was made for designing arbitrary (potentially hyper-linked or linked) documents, no?

   > * Parser for a poorly designed programming language 
       and advanced JIT optimizations.
So are you talking Java or Javascript?! At this point it doesn't matter. Without doing any benchmarks and solid number crunching your claim is empty air.

This doesn't mean Firefox OS is more resource efficient than Android. Without benchmarks on same hardware neither can claim performance high ground.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#73

I think we are "almost there" in terms of freedom of choice and usage of our mobile device. We are still dependent on the carrier - e.g. Telefonica - to have our phone running our OS of choice. Of course, we have unlocked phones, but that's another thing, another price too. I wish my experience with mobile phones were the same as with laptops: every two years or so I step into a shop and buy a low-end machine on sale…

I used to do that with laptops. Then, I switched to the opposite end of the spectrum. I spend inordinate amounts of time in front of my laptop. If I'm going to outspend myself, it is on the laptop. The personal concession is that laptops must now last at least four years.

Now, whenever I need a laptop, I buy the best Lenovo I can find (well, not the absolute best, I aim for best-ish; price curves on laptops are stupid at the very high-end).

So far, it has worked better than the expendable machine style.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#74
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey PommeDeTerre, Allow me to give a different perspective here. While in many other mobile operating systems you can build apps with HTML (saying HTML from now on but meaning HTML/CSS/JS, ok?), the API the vendors make available don't cover the same features as what is native on that platform. We can say that Firefox OS is important because of the following things: MAKING THE WEB A FIRST CLASS CITIZEN Makes the web…

I love what Mozilla is trying to accomplish with Firefox OS. I hope it succeeds, and I don't want to be negative. But I'm not convinced about this part: > Firefox OS offers the best cost-benefit ratio once you think about how much performance you have against your hardware specs. If you pick the same low-end hardware with Android or Firefox OS, Android will have a worse experience, not because Android is broken in an…

> Android and Firefox OS both also have a VM to run managed code, along with a JIT compiler. Android's VM, Dalvik, was specifically designed to be memory efficient in the case where several apps are running as separate Unix processes. Is the same true of SpiderMonkey?

Short answer: yes, SpiderMonkey has been designed to be quite memory efficient.

> But on top of this, Firefox OS and its apps add:

Actually, let me clarify something, if not for you, then for our readers: "on top of this" means essentially "on top of the kernel and HAL," rather than "on top of Android."

> [valid points] So how can you say that Firefox OS is more resource-efficient than Android? Perhaps the Android platform developers have gotten sloppy lately, since they're primarily concerned about high-end phones. But that can be remedied.

All your technical points are valid. However, you have not taken into account the fact that Android is much larger than that not to mention, conceptually, very old. Just the Core Libraries, for instance, offer at least three or four ways of reading/writing files. Most of these APIs should be removed for the sake of performance, as they were based on Java 1.0 designs from the 1990s, a time at which industry believed that disk speed would keep improving as fast as CPU speed and that concurrency was too expensive to be used. But these APIs cannot be removed, simply because too much code depends upon them, both in Android itself and in applications that Google would not want to lose. Sadly, this means that all such code is a performance hog, especially on mobile devices, since mobile storage is horribly slow in comparison to PC storage.

Now, while I am less familiar with the rest of the architecture of Android, I seem to remember this is true of many features and that many features are accidentally implemented several times in the kernel, Dalvik, the libraries and/or the frameworks, in the interest of (partial) compatibility with Posix, Linux, J2SE, etc – and tutorials.

While it would theoretically be possible to get rid of all these inter-layer duplications, and to only keep the good APIs, this effectively means breaking too much of both Android itself and of many applications. Google cannot afford to do that, as they would risk driving away all developers and users. Moreover, Google does not need to do that, as Android has always been targeted towards high-end phones. A new operating system, by opposition, with everything to win and nothing to lose, can start from a blank state. Moreover, since Firefox OS offers only high-level APIs and no NDK-style access, it is easier and will remain easier for a number of years, to perform whichever low-level refactorings are necessary to improve performance and/or memory efficiency without breaking applications.

Note that this is almost the reverse of Chrome vs. Firefox. Firefox is burdened by the number of add-ons that need to be supported, and the low-level APIs provided to these add-ons, while Chrome, starting with a blank slate and restricted public APIs, managed to rise the stakes of performance quite harshly.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#75
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't? All recent MacBooks I have seen insist rather hard to be paired with an account and a credit card number. I have never done the initial setup of an iOS device, but I would have assumed that it was the same or worse.

I have a 2011 MacBook and my wife has two iPhones, none of which are paired with a credit card. It's been a while since I set it up, but if I recall correctly you can create your "Apple ID" online and select 'None' for the credit card, then you sign in on your device with that account. When you're creating an account on the device , I think it may force you pair a credit card though.

It doesn't force you, but it is pretty insistent. You have to look for options really hard to see how to avoid entering a credit card. But it is possible.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#76
post #63
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey PommeDeTerre, Allow me to give a different perspective here. While in many other mobile operating systems you can build apps with HTML (saying HTML from now on but meaning HTML/CSS/JS, ok?), the API the vendors make available don't cover the same features as what is native on that platform. We can say that Firefox OS is important because of the following things: MAKING THE WEB A FIRST CLASS CITIZEN Makes the web…

This should be a blog post in itself.

[deleted]

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#77
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Can you access any form of store without a credit card and without giving away your identity to Apple? And, just as importantly, can joe/jane user do it?

> And, just as importantly, can joe/jane user do it? Irrelevant as those users will not care and just punch in their credit card if asked.

That's what I meant by my question: is there any reasonable manner in which joe/jane user could decide to not punch in their credit card and still manage to setup the device?

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox OS will need to successfully compete against BlackBerry OS, Windows Mobile, bada and the other quite obscure mobile OSes long before it'll have a chance to even begin competing against Android or iOS. Many of these alternative systems have actually shipped on numerous devices, and have actual users. And how exactly is it "different"? Firefox OS is really just a limited subset of what we already have available…

> And how exactly is it "different"? Robert Nyman of Mozilla pointed me at this: https://blog.mozilla.org/ligong/2013/06/03/foxconn-joins-the... "Foxconn stated that they intend to have FFOS running on all categories of the “8 screen” devices, from smartphone to tablets to laptops to TVs and outdoor signage." Name me another mobile OS that will be running on laptops or outdoor signage. :) This, I think, is the bigger…

Ubuntu

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#79
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One big difference from WebOS is that the company behind FirefoxOS will not likely abandon it within 12 months of kicking it off. 4th or 5th place in the market might represent enough scale to be considered a "success" as far as Mozilla is concerned.

Those devices still need to be built. So a 4th or 5th place might not generate enough revenue to pay them.

I'm not a manufacturer, but at a guess, I'd say that 4th/5th place is still plenty of billions of dollars.

Re: Firefox OS devices officially released

#80

I think we are "almost there" in terms of freedom of choice and usage of our mobile device. We are still dependent on the carrier - e.g. Telefonica - to have our phone running our OS of choice. Of course, we have unlocked phones, but that's another thing, another price too. I wish my experience with mobile phones were the same as with laptops: every two years or so I step into a shop and buy a low-end machine on sale…

Would you be interested in contributing to port Firefox OS to new platforms? Firefox OS can use Android kernel and drivers, so the hard[est] part is done. Doesn't mean that it's necessarily easy, but if you want to run Firefox OS on your hardware of choice, it is at least theoretically possible.
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