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Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

guardian.co.uk

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Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#51

Post by madaxe »

rayiner wrote: post #43
madaxe wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were I in the shoes of one of the kidnap victims at Guantanamo (for that is all they are - they are neither prisoners nor combatants, just abductees), I would not wish to continue that existence. The right to death is as important as the right to life.

Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims." And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently the…

Oh please.

1) Many (most) weren't "caught" doing anything, other than going about their business. The majority were kidnapped from airports.

2) "Allied forces"? We white. Them black. Therefore them bad. Try to see the world from a perspective other than your own.

3) "War zone" - no it wasn't. It became a warzone after most of those in Gitmo were disappeared. That's like saying that what happened to jewish people before WWII was fine because it became a war zone.

4) It's not a characterisation, it's exactly what it is, if you interpret the situation through the Geneva convention, which the US is inexplicably a party to.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#52

Post by pstuart »

rayiner wrote: post #43
madaxe wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were I in the shoes of one of the kidnap victims at Guantanamo (for that is all they are - they are neither prisoners nor combatants, just abductees), I would not wish to continue that existence. The right to death is as important as the right to life.

Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims." And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently the…

The are not all guilty:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/04/former-s...

You, on the other hand, are guilty of providing moral support for this travesty.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#53

Post by donutz »

StavrosK wrote: post #14
bbwharris wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree it is a disgrace, what do you plan to do with the detainees? If they weren't "terrorists" before, they most likely are now. Think about it, that's the real problem. I'm not defending it, I think it should be closed too. These humans have been subjected to complete hell.

What else would you do with them, other than set them free? "Oh I have this guy in my basement I've been torturing for four years, I can't let him go now because he's going to want to kill me". Are you serious?

I get your point, but really it's more like "Oh I have this guy in my basement I've been torturing for four years, I can't let him go now because he's going to want to kill my family who couldn't stop me from torturing this guy anyway".

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#55

Post by yardie »

rayiner wrote: post #50
epistasis wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. Wow, that is incredibly misinformed. And even if it were true (it is not), it does not justify torture. Torture is always despicable, and there's a permanent moral stain on the nation that perpetrates torture, no matter who is being tortured. There is no excuse. No excuse.

Torture is despicable, but there is an ongoing debate about whether anything going on at Guantanamo (as opposed to Abu Ghraib) is actually torture under the international definitions. It's not a settled issue like you're making it out to be.

> there is an ongoing debate

Is this like the debate on climate change? Where 99.99% of the scientists agree it's man made, yet a few others think it's natural.

> It's not a settled issue like you're making it out to be.

Yeah, I think it's pretty much settled by everyone but the US government.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#56

Post by yardie »

StavrosK wrote: post #23
Ovid wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's horrifying. Might as well force-feed them pork. And the US knows that this is illegal, too: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/05/forcefee...

No, they force-fed them at night, which is when they could eat. It's still fucked up, but at least it's not a sin.

It's not a sin, period.

Eating during Ramadan is not a sin. You fast to sacrifice and share together (really, in spite of what you heard people get fat during Ramadan). But young children, the elderly, and the sick aren't required to fast nor is it considered a sin not to.

The doctors could have force fed them swine blood at high noon and it would not make an iota of difference. To the detainees it's a bullshit maneuver that says, "see, we're respecting Islam, we aren't burning the Koran anymore," when everyone can clearly see this is utter bullshit.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#57

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #43
madaxe wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were I in the shoes of one of the kidnap victims at Guantanamo (for that is all they are - they are neither prisoners nor combatants, just abductees), I would not wish to continue that existence. The right to death is as important as the right to life.

Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims." And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently the…

Neither characterization is true. GTMO detainees weren't kidnapped, but there's little evidence to suggest that most of them were actual combatants.

It upsets me a little to see discussions about things like GTMO distracting themselves from the core issue. The problem isn't detention at GTMO, or drone strikes, or the citizenship status of targets. To engage yourself fully with any of those problems is to nibble around the edges of the real issue.

The problem is that in 2001, Congress issued a declaration of war (that's what the AUMF was) against an ideology. At the time, that might have seemed sensible; a way to take the threat of armed terrorism more seriously than we had. But the problem with it is obvious and it's something Obama is facing down now: you can't eradicate an ideology, which leaves us in a permanent state of war.

If we'd declared war against Afghanistan, the status of prisoners at GTMO would be clearer; we'd at some point declare the conflict over (we'd have to, because contra the Daily Kos left, the USG does not actually want to station hundreds of thousands of soldiers in Afghanistan) and the prisoners would be released.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#58

Post by tptacek »

rayiner wrote: post #50
epistasis wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. Wow, that is incredibly misinformed. And even if it were true (it is not), it does not justify torture. Torture is always despicable, and there's a permanent moral stain on the nation that perpetrates torture, no matter who is being tortured. There is no excuse. No excuse.

Torture is despicable, but there is an ongoing debate about whether anything going on at Guantanamo (as opposed to Abu Ghraib) is actually torture under the international definitions. It's not a settled issue like you're making it out to be.

It seems pretty clear that torture did happen at/around GTMO, and that it ceased (modulo force feeding) under Obama.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#59

Post by rayiner »

tptacek wrote: post #57
rayiner wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. You can argue about whether the Guantanamo Bay detainees are being treated fairly as prisoners of war, but they were caught fighting against Allied forces in a war zone. It's an absurd characterization to call them "kidnap victims." And the U.S. does not recognize a "right to death" for anyone in the U.S. You can argue about that policy, but the Guantanamo detainees are not being treated inconsistently the…

Neither characterization is true. GTMO detainees weren't kidnapped, but there's little evidence to suggest that most of them were actual combatants. It upsets me a little to see discussions about things like GTMO distracting themselves from the core issue. The problem isn't detention at GTMO, or drone strikes, or the citizenship status of targets. To engage yourself fully with any of those problems is to nibble aroun…

To be fair, the AUMF was not a declaration of war against an ideology. It was a declaration of war against whichever specific non-state military groups planned and committed the September 11 attacks and anyone who harbored them. From the AUMF:

"(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons."

The AUMF refers to prevention of "future acts of international terrorism" but specifically authorizes force only against those who were involved with the 9/11 attacks.

Re: Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure

#60

Post by doktrin »

speeder wrote: post #44
krapp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you may be conflating your own sadism with something normative and just. Despite your assertions elsewhere that the whole world is just waiting for an opportunity to turn the United States into a graveyard, most people around the world do not not, in fact, hate the United States so vehemently that 9/11 made them cheer. Most people around the world reacted the way human beings with empathy do, with horror and…

Most brazillians did not celebrated 9/11, obviously. Most did not care. Several of those who did, were shocked, and sad, specially those that had relatives there. But several were VERY HAPPY, usually those that got screwed during the cold war. My point is: people forget, that when you make yourself a hated enemy, people WILL hate you, in irrational ways, it is easy to create terrorist and a vicious cycle of violence.…

> People are NOT psychopaths, they are normal people, hurt by US government so deeply, that any chance they have to see it hurting back will make them happy, even if it means the deaths of thousands of innocents.

> I am very sure that if you leave a US citizen (any citizen, the most adorable citizen even) near one of the territories were PCC is popular (PCC is a huge organized crime thing here, created during the cold war with purpose of fighting US-backed government), people (normal people, civilians, not members of PCC) will be happy to do things to that citizen that is best not describe here...

You're describing antisocial behavior and a diminished capacity for remorse, which are defining characteristics of psycopathy.

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