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Armchair air crash investigator

momav.me

141–150 of 154 posts

Re: Armchair air crash investigator

#141
post #84
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, autoland is pretty good. But there are two factors that cause pilots to land manually most of the time: 1) pilots think they are better at handling last-minute unexpected contingencies like wind sheer or bird strikes (and they may well be right about that) and 2) pilots don't want to give the Powers that Be any additional data to suggest that they aren't actually needed to fly a plane at all. The fact of the matt…

> The fact of the matter is that there are no technological barriers to making aircraft completely autonomous, but pilots want the world to remain in denial about this for as long as possible for the sake of their job security. Two words: anomalous conditions. As we both know, pilots aren't needed in the vast majority of commercial flights. The plane is perfectly capable of taking off, navigating, avoiding collisions…

Another big reason for piloted planes is, seriously now, who here would get on a plane knowing that it was being flown without a pilot.

If it's hard for most of us from varying technological backgrounds to say yes than it's going to be almost impossible to convince the more mature passengers.

This is one of the reasons why all planes look the same (they have the same configuration, low wing with engine below wing) even tho Airbus and Boeing keep churning out concepts. Would you get on a plane that looked even slightly funky?

Re: Armchair air crash investigator

#142
post #141
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fact of the matter is that there are no technological barriers to making aircraft completely autonomous, but pilots want the world to remain in denial about this for as long as possible for the sake of their job security. Two words: anomalous conditions. As we both know, pilots aren't needed in the vast majority of commercial flights. The plane is perfectly capable of taking off, navigating, avoiding collisions…

Another big reason for piloted planes is, seriously now, who here would get on a plane knowing that it was being flown without a pilot. If it's hard for most of us from varying technological backgrounds to say yes than it's going to be almost impossible to convince the more mature passengers. This is one of the reasons why all planes look the same (they have the same configuration, low wing with engine below wing) ev…

> ...seriously now, who here would get on a plane knowing that it was being flown without a pilot.

Given that the most common cause of aircraft accidents (by quite some margin) is human error, I'll take my chances with the computer.

Re: Armchair air crash investigator

#143
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I am a pilot, albeit not an instrument rated one. Are you telling me you don't do anything? Do you bring a book to read instead of monitoring the instruments? You don't talk to ATC, you never have to make a decision regarding a route deviation? You never take into account weather information and make a decision underway on whether to press on or to find another place to land?

No, of course I'm not saying that. I'm saying all those decisions could be automated, not that they have been . Except for ATC communications, all the information I use to make in-flight decisions is already available in digital form. All the engine parameters are digital. I get en-route METARS via XM. I have an WAAS GPS coupled to the autopilot. The only thing standing in the way of making my aircraft completely aut…

For normal operations, I think it's possible to make it _mostly_ autonomous today (TTS and voice recognition for ATC, and some heuristic metar/weather radar analysis might work). I don't think we have the technology today to make such a system safe enough to not have a human ready as a backup. And for an accident scenario, I think it's completely impossible today since we would need to integrate audio, video and smell sensors and AI software to rival humans in situational awareness. This would mean exceptionally complex software.

The way we have solved reliability in autopilots and FBW systems today is to make them as simple as possible and to give them sensible fallback modes (like the Airbus FBW removing stall protection when missing certain inputs), and even then we have had real life accidents because of programming errors or design errors. So if you think pilot automation is mainly a question of politics as you said earlier, I think you are being overly optimistic (which, of couse, is not uncommon in the software industry).

I think a better approach to removing pilots is to see the strengths in both computers and humans and design systems where the advantages of both are maximized.

If you are interested in reading more on software safety, http://sunnyday.mit.edu/ is a good starting point.

Re: Armchair air crash investigator

#144
post #130
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been said, but I want to add weight to it: this is not at all expected. You never climb during a normal landing. I'd wager that 120fpm climb reading to be due to a measurement error of some kind, not actually something that really happened.

Looking at the GPS coordinates, the second to last reading was ~200m before the seawall, while the last reading was around halfway down the runway. The plane is far outside it's normal operating conditions by this point, it's possible the plane instruments actually experienced a brief moment of 'climb' while the plane was crashing, or it could be equipment malfunction. However, from what I can tell, the plane never r…

Looking at the data, it's obvious that the vertical velocity figures are not anywhere near as accurate as "120" would indicate.

The data points are in the neighborhood of 15 seconds apart. There are 4 points labeled 2:25PM, 3 points labeled 2:26PM, and 5 points labeled 2:27PM.

The altitude data is all rounded to the nearest 100ft. Obviously this is coming from transponder data. The mode C transponder carried by an airliner reports pressure altitude back to the interrogating radar at 100ft intervals.

Vertical velocity is all multiples of 60fpm. I have no idea where that would be coming from. As far as I know, vertical velocity is not transmitted by either radar transponders nor the newer ADS-B position broadcasting equipment. Simply taking the derivative of reported altitude wouldn't produce these results, because with 100ft altitude intervals and 15s reporting intervals, that gives you a vertical velocity resolution of only 400fpm.

Let's skip that question for the moment. The raw altitude data does show an increase from 100ft to 200ft at the end. But what conclusion can we draw from this? Essentially nothing. Because the altitude is so quantized, this could in theory indicate anything between a 0ft and 200ft increase in altitude, non-inclusive. Of course, the instruments are not that precise, so in practice the range is even larger. This is especially true given that the instrument was in the middle of a fairly violent plane crash when it gave that last reading. From the video of the crash, it's clear the plane never got very high above the runway. Since the runway is only 13ft above sea level, and the plane didn't crash into the ocean, the amount of climb possible is very much limited. The transponder may well have increased in altitude a bit for this last reading, but if so, the alignment with the reported altitude increase is pretty much just coincidental.

Now back to the vertical velocity. Where did it come from? I can only speculate that they're applying some kind of curve-fitting or smoothing to transform the coarse altitude data into smoother vertical velocity figures. These numbers are therefore even less reliable than the altitude figures, and can probably just be ignored.

Just to briefly support that last bit, there are some obvious numerical anomalies in the vertical velocity figures earlier in the flight. At 9:38AM, the data source briefly switches from "FlightAware Transoceanic" to "Oakland Oceanic" and then back again. The two Oakland data points show an altitude of 37,000ft, while the FlightAware data shows 34,000ft. The vertical velocity for these four points is shown as 2280fpm, 9960fpm, -4320fpm, and -1800fpm. These changes obviously didn't actually happen (otherwise we'd have heard about people being flung about the cabin in mid-flight!) and are just some sort of reporting anomaly. The ridiculous vertical velocity figures (nearly 10,000fpm climb accompanied by a minor increase in horizontal speed!) are obviously just some sort of post-processing going crazy trying to fit the bad altitude data.

Re: Armchair air crash investigator

#145
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil's-advocate: fine, OK, we still need pilots, for the time being. But do they actually need to be on the planes? In the case of two recent crashes (AF447 and this one, assuming pilot error turns out to be the cause as seems likely), it's safe to say that a computer would've easily done a better job than the pilots. Would be interesting to hear Capt. Sullenberger's take on the question.

Assuming we could make such a system secure and unhackable as well as unjammable, why would we want to? To save some money? I would rather pay a little more to have the pilot sit in the same airplane and have his life on the line as well. I just find it fascinating how obsessed people seem with getting rid of pilots. You don't often hear the same discussion about train or bus drivers, or doctors for that matter, even…

You don't often hear the same discussion about train or bus drivers

Plenty of cities are getting rid of their subway drivers at least. And if many airport shuttle trains around the world are automated as well.

Re: Armchair air crash investigator

#146
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"- number 4, pilot error/bad approach, can't argue with that. the story is what's interesting" Pilot induced oscillation on a really big scale. Coming in way too hot, slam down, whoops way over corrected, now coming in too low, whoops ran outta air and time to correct. Coming in way too hot, now are you better off trying to salvage or go around and get fired? Different nations airlines have differing policies on this…

Do you really risk getting fired for a go around? I mean, I can see that happening if you do it way more than other pilots, but just doing it once? (For the record, I have no idea how these things works, it's just very surprising)

There may be some parallels between this and the crash which happened over London in 1999, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Cargo_Flight_8509

Re: Armchair air crash investigator

#147
post #2

I heard a reporter on TV reporting that the airplane was doing cartwheels on the runway, and I pictured the semi-truck being flipped over in Batman. And then I thought what the hell could have done that? Fishtailed makes more sense, thanks for the clarification.

CNN just released video footage they have of the actual crash. The plane (from what I see) after crashing does a near 360-degree turn with the right wing high up – in fact you can see that the plane is almost nose down-tail up which almost makes it look like it was cartwheeling. Very surprising revelation, I really did not expect an airframe to remain as intact as it did after going through that.

I looked at the video again and again, and ironically, if the jet had done a 360 on the ground it would have broken into pieces, but this jet did a airborne near-360 after the wingtip dug in and the jet became airborne again for an instant.

Re: Armchair air crash investigator

#148

It goes without saying that my qualifications in aviation matters are only as an aviation enthusiast and for the full cause of the accident, we'll have to wait for the NTSB report (which has access to vital black box data and cockpit recordings). However, I did give this accident some thought as well given the circumstances of the accident and came the pretty much the same final conclusion as the OP. An airline pilot…

I'm a widebody captain, maybe I can add some insight.

The handling of the aircraft is a small part of the job. Autoflight systems have been capable of flying and landing since the 1960s. It is a mature technology although it does need to be monitored by humans as equipment failures do occur. I am confident a system could be developed with sufficient fail safes to remove the requirement for monitoring, and a fully automatically flown aircraft could be built tomorrow although at a higher cost than the current monitored setup.

Even if an unmonitored autoflown aircraft was developed, judgement decisions about the operation of the aircraft still need to be taken, and these are best done by a human. Examples of decisions I make:

1. The best fuel consumption maybe achieved at a higher flight level, but I elect to stay low and burn into contingency because I've heard reports of turbulence at the higher level. I judge that I probably won't need the contingency fuel later based on previous experience of the route and destination. So I give my passengers a smooth ride, which helps repeat custom for the airline.

2. I experience radio crackle whilst in cloud and elect to change my routing as I suspect we are near a developing thunderstorm that may soon become active. I have to balance the extra fuel burn of a non-optimal route versus the risks of being caught in a thunderstorm which could destroy the aircraft.

I'm not an AI expert, but it seems to me these are value judgements that are best made by a human. So the fully autoflown aircraft will still need a human in the loop at some point.

It is possible to remotely site this human, and maybe make efficiency savings by a single human controlling many aircraft but this would require a bulletproof, near realtime datalink. Again, I'm not an expert in the field, but I would suggest this is, if not technically impossible, then a lot more expensive than the cost of employing human pilots. I imagine this datalink would also be of interest to people with ill intent- no fun when you get the airborne equivalent of a rickroll.

TL;DR: A human is required in the loop, not to handle the aircraft but to make decisions. It's cheaper to have them on-board than the cost of a datalink. It's cheaper to have them trained to take manual control than the cost of an autopilot sufficiently fail safe that it can be left unmonitored.

Re: Armchair air crash investigator

#149
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If this is what really happened, I'll say the same thing I said then - it shocks me that airline pilots with thousands of flight hours can make the most elementary piloting mistake possible. But I've read accident reports before, and it's rarely a good idea to speculate. I won't have an opinion about this until the official report is published.

well, until report is out, we're here to speculate (or to read a good speculation if we're lucky :). From the Flightaware data the plane had 109kts at 100feet altitude before the seawall. The stall speed of 777 is about 110kts (its Vat is ~140, and it is 1.3 of the stall). And the speed was falling as the next recording is 85kts. While we can only guess about the original cause - pilot error or hardware, etc... - the…

Are you sure that the Flightaware data is accurate enough? When flying a glider, I have attempted to make similar judegments from GPS log data when doing an outlanding, and I'd be similarly careful when using radar data from a website.

I don't want to be very negative here, but my point is I've made wrong calls about this when speculating in the past. So currently I'm opposed to doing it for reasons other than entertainment.

Re: Armchair air crash investigator

#150
post #140
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like they mount stuff on CA-92/San Mateo Bridge ( http://www.flysfo.com/web/export/sites/default/download/abou... ) and then from there along the approach. The main issue seems to be the two parallel runways. From when I took photos of the airfield, there were a lot of lights and other things sticking out of the bay on the approach path. Decision Bar is supposed to be 1000' off the threshold so that was prob…

"once I have spare money and time" I've been telling myself that for decades and never quite had both at the same time. Often a great excess of one or the other. By the time I finally have both, I'll probably fail my medical with my luck. I did do ground school + a bit more on my own, and I've got a couple hours in the air with an instructor. I do some semi-serious sim flying for fun, mostly the X-Plane. If I ever ge…

I'm think in the Bay Area it's mostly a question of $10-15k and maybe 100 hours (flight + study time) to get the first license, and there are a decent number of rental choices.

My dream (well, the realistic one) is to get a CH-801 STOL kit plane with a diesel engine so I can live in Central Washington and get to I-5 in a reasonable amount of time, although weather probably prevents that often. That's only $150k or so, which would be saved in taxes and property cost differential several times over.

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