“Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book” • Hacker News Board

Re: “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”

#201

Post by kdeberk » Sun, Jul 07, 2013, 8:40 PM UTC

noelwelsh wrote: post #19

kdeberk wrote: post #11

To me it seems that there are a lot of issues at play that led to the death of this man, but temporarily ignoring the fact that it seems hypocritical for a state to both punish gamblers while promoting a state lottery, it appears necessary that SWAT teams are required to arrest people within their own homes given the fact that people are free to own weapons and use those for protection. I'm not saying that firearms n…

Well, you're wrong. From the same article: Indeed, that’s exactly what happened to seventy-two-year-old Aaron Awtry in 2010. Awtry was hosting a poker tournament in his Greenville, South Carolina, home when police began breaking down the door with a battering ram. Awtry had begun carrying a gun after being robbed. Thinking he was about to be robbed again, he fired through the door, wounding Deputy Matthew May in both…

> "Thinking he was about to be robbed again, he fired through the door"

Yeah, that appears to be a pretty foolish thing to do. What if it were firefighters who noticed a fire through his upstairs window? I don't think that they would just ring the bell and wait for an answer. I know that this a hypothetical situation, but it just seems a really stupid thing to just blindly fire at whatever is behind the door.

The only people who claim that the police did not first knock on the door are the friends and associates of the victim. One of the two groups is lying, and both can be lying to cover their asses. I have too little information to know whether this is an actual case of police brutality, sorry.

Edit: As a correction, the victim and his friends don't need to be lying. Perhaps the doorbell was broken, perhaps they didn't hear the police officers pounding at their door. I don't know, why should I jump to conclusions?

Re: “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”

#202

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jul 07, 2013, 8:40 PM UTC

noelwelsh wrote: post #19

kdeberk wrote: post #11

To me it seems that there are a lot of issues at play that led to the death of this man, but temporarily ignoring the fact that it seems hypocritical for a state to both punish gamblers while promoting a state lottery, it appears necessary that SWAT teams are required to arrest people within their own homes given the fact that people are free to own weapons and use those for protection. I'm not saying that firearms n…

Well, you're wrong. From the same article: Indeed, that’s exactly what happened to seventy-two-year-old Aaron Awtry in 2010. Awtry was hosting a poker tournament in his Greenville, South Carolina, home when police began breaking down the door with a battering ram. Awtry had begun carrying a gun after being robbed. Thinking he was about to be robbed again, he fired through the door, wounding Deputy Matthew May in both…

[deleted]

Re: “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”

#203

Post by tsotha » Sun, Jul 07, 2013, 8:42 PM UTC

nnnnni wrote: post #12

Isn't the first story in the article a clear case of entrapment? The cop encouraged the guy to do something and then killed him for it.

Entrapment laws are a defense from prosecution, and they're different in every state. Normally it's only entrapment if the cop is enticing someone to break a law he wouldn't have broken otherwise. In this case if the guy was betting on games every Sunday the jury probably would have taken a dim view of an entrapment defense.

The shooting is another issue. The cop is saying it wasn't deliberate, and that's probably true.

Re: “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”

#204

Post by btilly » Sun, Jul 07, 2013, 8:42 PM UTC

hammerzeit wrote: post #171

btilly wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of the abuses don't have good statistics around them. I personally know a guy who was put into a private jail on trumped up charges and denied bail. He fought in court, won, and has been presented with a large bill from the private jail. The kicker? The DA, the sheriff and many in the police force are investors in the private jail! Can you say "conflict of interest"?

That sounds terrible, I'm sorry for your friend. Systemically that's broken and represents the potential for massive abuse. That said, I assume you'd agree that anecdotes don't constitute data, and that we shouldn't develop strong beliefs on the backs of them. To assume the prevalence of something on the basis of loud anecdotes leads us to being easily manipulated -- in the absence of data I believe should keep our p…

Actually I believe that our brains are wired to work from anecdote to theory, not from statistics to theory.

In a small group this is a pretty good strategy. Where it breaks down in life is that the odds that we hear about an anecdote depend on the anecdote. This leads to all kinds of bias.

I know the limits of my conscious analysis. I therefore have come to accept that there is value for me in filtering out "something that happened to someone I directly know" from "something I heard about". Since this happened to someone I directly know, it affects what I think.

YMMV, and if you follow my rule, definitely should. But you'll at least understand why I might come to different conclusions than you do.

Re: “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”

#205

Post by hammerzeit » Sun, Jul 07, 2013, 8:43 PM UTC

drone wrote: post #117

It seems like every day, more and more political posts about the US are made here. It's getting to the point that it seems that 35% of the point of HN is about getting opportunities to make political statements about the US. There are so many, so so many, places to have on-going political arguments. I'm of the mind that any place that allows free commentary ultimately becomes a political discussion board, and HN is p…

It's hard to comment on this post considering how many times we've seen the "HN-is-dying" meme, but for me this time it really resonates.

What has made HN interesting is the fact that it was boring to the vast majority of people on this planet. The topics were generally speaking on a very specific set of subjects that you largely had to be in the technology world (and of a certain technical disposition) to relate to.

The relative boringness of these topics led to comments by folks who found them particularly fascinating, setting a high community standard and discouraging soapboxing (comparatively speaking, of course -- I'm under no illusions that HN was ever the most pristine and idealistic place). For a long time I thought PG did a good job of enforcing that culture by shutting down off-topic conversations and keeping the focus fairly intense.

The problem with political posts is that they are often extremely relevant to hackers, especially these days. But everyone finds politics interesting, and everyone (myself included) believes their political beliefs are equally valid. Watching snarky posts and soapboxes get rewarded does send a message that this is how to get noticed. Long-term, I fear this fundamentally coarsens the level of discourse by making it easier to dismiss the beliefs of others and making it easier to participate in situations where I feel ignorant.

Unfortunately, I think there's only one way I know of to stop this -- which would be for PG and/or the moderators to take an active role in enforcing the "no politics" rule that's already in the guidelines. But I think they're perhaps legitimately concerned about censorship -- anathema to hackers -- and have kept a loose hand. Beyond that I'm not sure what they can do.

Re: “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”

#206

Post by ryanSrich » Sun, Jul 07, 2013, 8:52 PM UTC

smky80 wrote: post #110

mikeash wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly, yes, it is the America that America wants, as far as I can tell. I think this is where efforts to fight these problems fall down. They're almost all based on the assumption that the populace doesn't want this stuff to happen, but that the government pushes it through by abusing power, subverting democracy, etc. But from what I see, this is not the case. Most Americans want this. Whether it's gun-wielding mania…

They do not "like" it. It's just that, to be very blunt, most people are basically peasants at heart. They're going to go along with whatever the king says. Twenty years ago, on that side of the line on a map, the people believed in capitalism, while on the other side the people believed in communism. On this side of the line people believed in this god, on that side, they believe in that god. It has nothing to do wi…

Well, "like" is a subjective term but for the most part people support it.

I hear all the time..."It's for the better. It allows the government to keep track of the bad guys and if I have to be inconvenienced a few times out of the year that I travel than so be it."

Or..."All I use email for is work and talking with family. If they want to read that stuff they can, I have nothing to hide. If it helps keep me safe then I'm comfortable."

And the there's..."God forbid we have another 9/11 because too many people are worried about what the government does. There are somethings the government has to do in secrete, there are things they have to lie to us about in order to keep us safe."

I'm 23 years old and I can't tell you where this mentality came from. I know when I was growing up my father showed me how to grow my own food, hunt, use a gun in a respectful mannor and always doubt the government. He told me that violence never solved any of his problems and it's doubtful it'd solve any of mine. He said in order for anyone to be safe they must have their freedom. The freedom to do whatever it is they seek to do. The government is only there to remove that freedom. They want to stifle your ambitions and control how you live.

I know I'm not alone but I'm afraid we are outnumbered.

Re: “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”

#207

Post by jonknee » Sun, Jul 07, 2013, 8:55 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #45

jonknee wrote: post #27

The article's photo is from the 2012 RNC in Tampa, FL. Despite an army of police with all the equipment a paramilitary outfit could wish for, there were almost no arrests. In total for the week there were 2, far fewer than there would have been in a normal week. A year later and they're still riding around in their RNC purchased bicycles, cruising in RNC speed boats and zipping around in RNC bobcats. The high-tech CC…

They did the same thing in Toronto after G20 in 2010 (where 700 were arrested). The police petitioned to keep all the CCTV cameras and all the equipment they spent millions of dollars on to prepare.

Similar situation here. I spoke up at the city council meeting about keeping the cameras and the Mayor used some budgetary magic to make it something the council couldn't rule on (they bought the cameras with RNC money and built in a maintenance contract--the council could only get rid of them if it were a financial decision). Once you give a police force a new toy you will never be able to take it back.

Re: “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”

#208

Post by kdeberk » Sun, Jul 07, 2013, 8:58 PM UTC

sophacles wrote: post #106

kdeberk wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the crime involved is not violent and the suspect has no history of assaulting police officers (or perhaps any history of violent acts), it should basically be a criminal act for the police to initiate the use of force during the apprehension. I think I agree. > You are making a huge leap from the presence of weapons to the use of violence against other people. I think police officers has to put their lives on t…

Firefighters/EMTs also put their lives on the line - responding to medic calls in the wrong neighborhood is dangerous, combative patients (such as those with weird blood sugar levels or medication issues), mean dogs, and so on are risks. Perhaps we should grant them special protections and reasoning to start putting people and animals down at will too. Right now if an EMT killed a combative patient or a dog, all hell…

I'm not saying that SWAT-teams should have free-reign. I fully agree that they need to be held accountable for their actions.

Edit: Fixed some terrible grammar.

Re: “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”

#209

Post by jaekwon » Sun, Jul 07, 2013, 9:03 PM UTC

Ovid wrote: post #162

logn wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, of course it's not the America we want. It's the America we get though due to our longstanding apathy and inability to curb special interest groups and corporate control of politics. I think things will change though. Things have been pretty nice in the US for a while. We're now seeing the dark side of apathy and people are starting to care again (in my opinion). It had been pretty easy to shrug off politics as c…

I agree with much of what you say, but I'm not sure I agree that "Americans won't accept that". - Obama has a secret "kill list" and has bragged about killing Americans without due process of law. - We have widespread surveillance of our phones and email. - The FBI admits that drones are now being used for domestic surveillance. - The activist Supreme Court is continuing to gut our laws and give Big Business everythi…

- Internet regulation justified by copyright protection

- Continued unconstitutional wars again "terrorism"

- Continued imperialism

- Whistleblower vilification

- Implicit taxation through unbridled govt debt

On Facebook, some friends are even afraid to "like" these stories now.

Most friends just ignore my posts. I can't tell whether they're apathetic, or whether they're suppressing it in fear. Or whether Facebook is throttling my posts using their "spam" algorithm. Maybe I've been throttled by my friends.

Most friends on Facebook post about how ugly or pretty something is, about the food they consume, or they're pushing some agenda of their own, as everybody has them nowadays.

Then you start wondering whether you're just being paranoid. Of course in normal pre-media life, such an inconsistent state of existence would be impossible. Can you imagine everybody around you being happy with ice-cream cones after being abused by yet another "lawful" breach of your liberty by the SWAT team, joined by some "celebrity"?

So it's easy to ignore the signs and live on earning your paycheck. Every day is exactly the same. You can't stay here, keep on moving on.

Dude, how do you even watch sports right now? There's so much work to do.

Yet days go on, everybody is chasing a paycheck or chasing a paper pyramid scheme. Or chasing fame, or chasing tail, anything to help take their minds off the now-ordinary horrid reality.

Some see the problems and can't help but feel that something is wrong, that something is unjust in this world. They're searching for a real purpose, as they stumble with potential solutions that have been tried and have failed.

While we ignore the children.

Re: “Why did you shoot me? I was reading a book”

#210

Post by logn » Sun, Jul 07, 2013, 9:08 PM UTC

Ovid wrote: post #162

logn wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, of course it's not the America we want. It's the America we get though due to our longstanding apathy and inability to curb special interest groups and corporate control of politics. I think things will change though. Things have been pretty nice in the US for a while. We're now seeing the dark side of apathy and people are starting to care again (in my opinion). It had been pretty easy to shrug off politics as c…

I agree with much of what you say, but I'm not sure I agree that "Americans won't accept that". - Obama has a secret "kill list" and has bragged about killing Americans without due process of law. - We have widespread surveillance of our phones and email. - The FBI admits that drones are now being used for domestic surveillance. - The activist Supreme Court is continuing to gut our laws and give Big Business everythi…

I understand your sentiment but if there's anything positive to hold onto it's that we're not the cliche frogs in water that slowly comes to a boil. Snowden alerted us in stark terms almost overnight that the water was boiling. We were in 1984 but the reality of our world was classified as top secret. In the tech community many of us saw the water slowly coming to a boil since about 2003. I think to most Americans though all the recent events comes as actual news. Yes, hopefully we can focus on matters of substance and not the mindless drivel we normally occupy ourselves with. Humanity, though, has always been the same I think. It's a case of "the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". I really don't think anyone is the US gov't has malice or ill will or a truly evil side. It's inertia and apathy that have led us to our current state. And so I think that if we decide to change course, we will.