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Indescribable numbers: The theorem that made me fall in love with math

blog.ram.rachum.com

61–70 of 91 posts

Re: Indescribable numbers: The theorem that made me fall in love with math

#61
what the author means to allude to, through some nonsensical rambling, are the incomputable numbers [1]

the cardinality of all real numbers that can be described by a terminating computer program to some accuracy is a countable set (since the number of such programs is countable) however, the cardinality of the reals is uncountable.

hence most real numbers cannot be computed beyond a certain accuracy.

Edit (additionally): the set of computable numbers forms a field (if a,b are computable, so is their sum, etc). and there are several movements in "constructive" mathematics, to work exclusively in this field, instead of the field of real numbers. however, many cornerstone theorems in analysis fail in this context, such as, the least upper bound of a bounded increasing computable sequence of computable numbers need not be a computable number [1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computable_number

Re: Indescribable numbers: The theorem that made me fall in love with math

#62
post #6

Ah, he's just getting started on his journey into the set of real numbers! Eventually he will discover, "God made the integers. All else is man made.". In particular, man made the real numbers to be complete which means that every sequence that appears to converge, that is, meets, the Cauchy criterion, actually does converge. Really his discoveries are about the completeness property of the real numbers. So, in parti…

> God made the integers. All else is man made. "God made natural numbers; all else is the work of man" - Leopold Kronecker. Possibly misquoted by Raymond Ayoub in "Musings of the Masters: An Anthology of Mathematical Reflections".

Thanks! I wanted to say natural numbers but thought that the original quote was the integers.

No excuse! Should have at least tried to Google the quote instead of just typing quickly from undergraduate school memory!

Re: Indescribable numbers: The theorem that made me fall in love with math

#63
post #41
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, to "do mathematics", e.g., show that the Riemann integral exists, that e and pi exist, etc., we want completeness. Then we are done: The reals are the only complete Archemedean ordered field! So, we have no choice!

I'm afraid I'm not a good enough logician to answer your objection properly, but there are, I believe, credible approaches to doing mathematics on a countable carrier set, for example: http://arxiv.org/pdf/math/0509245

"Credible", likely yes. Likely also awkward. To weasel out, I just said we "want completeness". When you look at the alternatives, you may conclude that you still want completeness and, thus, are stuck with the reals with no alternative you "want"!

Re: Indescribable numbers: The theorem that made me fall in love with math

#64
post #6

Ah, he's just getting started on his journey into the set of real numbers! Eventually he will discover, "God made the integers. All else is man made.". In particular, man made the real numbers to be complete which means that every sequence that appears to converge, that is, meets, the Cauchy criterion, actually does converge. Really his discoveries are about the completeness property of the real numbers. So, in parti…

Thanks for the book mention. It's now sitting in my Amazon cart.

It's a fun book, likely intended to be entertaining, like a dessert buffet. It's elegantly done. The first chapter connects well with this thread.

Some of the results in the later chapters are also mind blowing. Seeing some of those results in a course in measure theory, I staggered around for about two days wondering how a universe could exist with such things being true.

Re: Indescribable numbers: The theorem that made me fall in love with math

#65
post #43

I didn't think that dating this theorem to the 1940's was accurate. This was originally proved by Cantor in 1874 [1]. Cantor's work was well-known (and highly controversial) during his lifetime [2]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncountability_of_the_real_numb... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg_Cantor

The theorem(s) about uncomputable numbers do date back only as far as the 1940's, because that's when computability was first being discovered/invented. Yes, the point about there being uncountably many reals dates back to Cantor, but that's a different theorem, and a different proof. The existence of uncomputable numbers follows as a corollary from Cantor's first proof of 1874, but the conclusion must be drawn - it…

You're misunderstanding the theorem the author proved.

Theorem A (author's theorem): No mapping from finite-length strings to real numbers will hit all the real numbers.

Theorem B (your theorem): Let's map strings of finite length to real numbers as follows: Consider the string as the specification for a Turing machine. If the specification is syntactically OK as a Turing machine description, and the output is syntactically OK as the decimal expansion of a (potentially infinite) real number, then that string maps to that real number. Otherwise, the string maps to zero. Then this particular mapping doesn't hit all the real numbers.

It's obvious that Theorem B is just a special case of Theorem A. And it's also obvious that Theorem A is a trivial corollary of Cantor's result (that no mapping from natural numbers to real numbers hits all real numbers), with no Turing machines or computation theory anywhere in sight.

I can well believe that Theorem B was either proven by Turing himself, or established in the early years post-Turing; it's low-hanging fruit once you've defined Turing machines and are familiar with Cantor's results. And it could hardly have been proven before the Turing machines were defined! So Theorem B is a special case that could plausibly have first arisen in the 1940's, but Theorem A is actually the theorem the author is talking about.

Re: Indescribable numbers: The theorem that made me fall in love with math

#66
post #58
post #57

> It is well proven that Aleph one, which is the infinity of the real numbers, is undeniably bigger than the infinity of the natural numbers. This language really aggravates me. Thus far, there is no definition for what it means for one infinite series of numbers to be "bigger" than another. > bear in mind that the set of real numbers is “even more infinite", and that’s the closest I can give you to an intuitive desc…

There are several different definitions for comparing infinite quantities, and I've used one of them. If I defined all the terms, my article would be twice as long (and it's too long as it is.) Whoever wants precise technical terms is welcome to go on Wikipedia.

> There are several different definitions for comparing infinite quantities, and I've used one of them.

Well, that makes it even worse. Now you're saying, "There are multiple definitions, and I used one of them, but I did not specify which one."

> Whoever wants precise technical terms is welcome to go on Wikipedia.

All right, but in the meantime, when you use terms that you leave undefined, you turn away anyone besides people who already know what you are saying.

Re: Indescribable numbers: The theorem that made me fall in love with math

#69
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, to "do mathematics", e.g., show that the Riemann integral exists, that e and pi exist, etc., we want completeness. Then we are done: The reals are the only complete Archemedean ordered field! So, we have no choice!

On the contrary, we do have a choice! We could use computable numbers instead of reals. A computable number is any number which is output by some Turing machine, or, equivalently, any number which can be found by some algorithm. e and pi are computable. You are right that Riemann integrals won't exist, but if you modify definitions somewhat, derivatives and integrals can be defined just as easily for computable numbe…

And while almost all real numbers aren't computable (by the argument in the article), essentially every number you'd ever stumble upon in a math class is.

Not every number though. It turns out that there are numbers that are describable but not computable.

What is the difference? Well here's an example. A Chaitin omega number is the probability that a valid program randomly constructed according to a specific set of rules will eventually halt. It is describable - indeed I just described it. Yet Chaitin has proven that an algorithm to compute it will lead to an algorithm that solves the halting problem, so it cannot be computable.

So there you have it. A class of perfectly describable numbers that are not computable. Indeed it can be proven that we cannot know more than a fixed number of digits for any particular one without increasing the size of our axiom system.

Re: Indescribable numbers: The theorem that made me fall in love with math

#70
post #53

It is well proven that Aleph one, which is the infinity of the real numbers, is undeniably bigger than the infinity of the natural numbers. The clause "Aleph one, which is the infinity of the real numbers", is known as the continuum hypothesis, and has a fascinating background in itself. First, the existence of Aleph one in axiomatic Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory depends (surprisingly) on the Axiom of Choice. If you re…

It's precisely this conundrum and others like it that have lead me to take two controversial opinions that are far less firm than the real thought that your describing: 1) mathematics and what is taught as physics are not "real," but merely leaky abstractions. Even though they can capture reality very well, they are not reality itself. There is no perfect circle that exists in physical space, and not necessarily a pi represented anywhere in physical space. You'll notice that a lot of the wonder that is expressed in this post comes from thinking that 3sin(57) is something that is exactly* reality. And 2) all of mathematics is invented, not discovered. The particular math we use may be discovered independently by different, unconnected, civilizations, because there are certain thought processes that fit well with human intelligence. If we discover other intelligent life forms, there may be some small overlap by coincidence in our mathematics, it's likely that it could be quite different. Perhaps even arithmetic could be considerably different.

We are taught from day one in class that mathematics is some sort of ideal plane of existence, pure, and real. However I see it only as technology for our squishy gray matter to help navigate a mysterious universe. I get huge huge resistance on this from engineers and some young scientists; they see the textbook science and math where everything has a nice closed-form answer you can look up in the back of the book. More mature scientists object less, but that may just be because they think it's pointless to discuss these things with me.

Trying to use mathematical technology in the real world in new areas makes one realize that only a tiny percentage of questions are answerable with the tools they teach us in school. The lack of a closed solution to the 3-body problem is not due to a lack of cleverness in answering, but a lack of cleverness in questioning. And further study leads to the paradoxes and the holes that were discovered in the previous century, at which point, most people's faith in math's fidelity to reality begins to become less than absolute.

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