Live data from Hacker News

Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

bbc.co.uk

111–120 of 192 posts

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#111
post #68

This isn't only in Japan, it is a phenomenon that is spreading across the globe. Japan is first hit because of the strong disparities between generations. Truth is, the internet brought about a lot of things so one could have a constant "window out" from a single room. Most of us know precisely what I am talking about. I would like to theorize that this is only one of the things that facilitate such isolation by maki…

It doesn't help that a lot of people only post good stuff to Facebook. "Pictures of wife and I celebrating our anniversary!". They don't then say "We both screamed at each other for 3 hours, just after the photo was taken."

Facebook is depressing to people like me precisely because it allows you to compare your lowlights tto an endless stream of others' highlights.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I disagree with "It's just that I prefer being home.", but in my own experience, thinking what are the things that every human being should do, I get to a few points : * reproduce in a healthy manner ( have healthy and well supported children ) * socialize with real people ( we got facial emotions and beautiful speaking capabilities that mammals use for this ) * sport ( the other way around is unhealthy, sin…

I would disagree with items 1, 2, and 3 on your list. Here's my list of things everyone should do: - Pursue your personal goals with strength and conviction - Find out what social environment makes you happy (It's ok if it's none) and find a way to build it - Stay healthy in body and mind in a way that is enjoyable or at least tolerable for you

Jerry Seinfeld in an interview a week or two ago described the process of finding an adult life as a process of finding a torture that you're comfortable with. You find a level of health that keeps the pains down to a tolerable level, and you suffer through the amount of exercise and refuse to eat things that you want to eat enough times that you need to keep you at that level of chronic pain. You make these calculations with all opposing tortures in your life.

Eventually you're living in a finely tuned pain minimizing environment, and if you have any energy left, you can get things done.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#113
post #45
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they don't really know how to act about it. After all (and I am just guessing here) tradition doesn't teach how to help this people.

I don't think any culture really teaches how to help shut-ins, at least once it becomes a legitimate mental health issue. In the western world, however, parents will very quickly make their newly reclusive child's life miserable (taking away TV, games, computers, etc.), and even kick adult children to the curb if they refuse to support themselves. And because this is done almost from the start, most kids aren't yet s…

> In the western world, however, parents will very quickly make their newly reclusive child's life miserable (taking away TV, games, computers, etc.), and even kick adult children to the curb if they refuse to support themselves. And because this is done almost from the start, most kids aren't yet so far gone that they can still reintegrate into society themselves, if given enough incentive.

You kick someone out of the house it's entirely possible that they'll behave in an analogous manner on the street or in a council flat. Do you have any data?

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#114
post #62
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NEET is japanese terminology, not international. NEET and Hikkikomori refer to two different behaviour types.

It's actually a British term that has been adopted by Japan. I know this might be splitting hairs, but both the wiki link you're replying to and the parent article cite this: "an adopted British acronym meaning "not in education, employment or training"

NEET (ニート) appears to me that it has a much wider, common and regular use in Japan, in particular it's entirely appropriated by the population and media. And there, in their terminology it is distinct from Hikkikomori, which was the point I was making

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#115
I get the feeling the neet problem in the west is strongly enabled by 4chan and related websites, which possible carries over similar values over from the Japanese.

What I mean by this is that any normal activity: going outside, talking to people (especially women), having full time employment, hell even masturbating to 3D porn (instead of hentai) is looked down upon. Stating that you do any of these is met with instant ridicule accompanied by a picture of George Costanza from Seinfeld and an implied quote, e.g. :

>2013 >going outside >talking to women

Posters on 4chan wear their neet achievements like a badge of honor. How long they haven't left their room for, how many cum/piss bottles they have filled up (with pictures for proof) or the latest anime they have marathoned.

Many just don't see the need to reenter society. Their dietary needs are pretty basic. Entertainment is provided by video games and the sheer volume of anime being churned out by the studios these days, a lot of which consists of cute underage girls (or sisters) doing cute/sexually suggestive things. Sexual urges are fulfilled by the copious amounts of hentai available on the web.

Many have chosen "waifu"s (or "husbando"s depending on your orientation), which serve as their significant others. These waifu's usually come from their favorite anime. They may just hold that waifu very dearly or they may adorn their walls with pictures of her or buy figurines of her. Some have dakki pillows of that characters which are full length body pillows with their character printed on it. The more deluxe versions have removable layers for the various layers of undergarments ( http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire3/f73e8f13ea9e2762db0a... ). Some even have "holes". You should see the dedication of these guys on valentines day; candle-lit dinners covered with rose petals. It would put most normal-fags to shame (however I still don't get how a Thinkpad screen can eat chocolate cake). For in depth explanation of the waifu phenomenon see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YtwPPsBKGQ .

But it is not just an affinity for 2D women. It's a hatred of 3D / IRL women too. Most view 3D women as lying, manipulative whores who are not to be trusted. Contrast this to their imaginary waifu's who will always love them and never betray. This is probably due their difficulties they have experience with women due to their personalities. There is even word for this is 3DPD: 3D Pig Disgusting.

Yes, I know "mai waifu" and "3DPD" started off as a joke, but it has gone way past that point. What started of as self-degrading humour has become deeply ingrained in the collective psyche of 4chann.

There is also the question of money. In Japan, most hikki stay with their parents, I assume mainly due to high rental costs there. But most of the 4chan posters who are neets (most aren't and do actually hold sucessful full-time jobs, but the number who are is disproportionately high), get government funding and/or free housing. The funding usually comes in the disability benefits (for autism-spectrum/mood disorders, real or perceived) which they call "autism bux" or unemployment benefits. Also housing is pretty cheap in the west esp. in N. America and the Nordic countries, allowing them to live independently. I think this is one of the main differences between Western neets and hikki's.

There is a lot of negativity there as you can imagine. What is scary is how easily this negative emotion is channeled. What was /b/, the general/most active board on 4chan, is now /pol/, the politics board. And with that jump comes feeding of far-right views like antisemitism and strong anti-black racism from that hate. But for some strange reason, they consider Koreans (East Aryans) and other asians (but not Indians) part of the master race. This is possibly due to their love of k-pop and anime.

We all remember donglegate with Adria Richards. That was originally picked up by /pol/ who worked the crowed and then passed it on to /b/ for execution. While HN saw it as political correctness gone mad, /pol/ saw it differently. Not only was she a liberal feminist, but she was a half n1gger k1ke-kess too!

There are many "why aren'y you a neet?" or "neet masterrace" threads, extolling the virtues of the neet lifestyles, ridiculing those who work, boasting about how much "autism bux" they get and swapping tips on how to get more. The thrify money-saving tips are pretty good too.

Again with the rise of /pol/ these threads have taken an anti-semetic twist. Right now there is a thread called "ITT: Why Jews make you NEET" http://boards.4chan.org/pol/res/16647507 , but it probably will die quickly. Most of the posts are jokes, but I am uncertain as to what extent they consider their views as jokes vs reality.

4channers also understand the economic and social forces that put them in this neet situation. This is expressed in "People who should die: Baby Boomers" threads, mocking the employment advice baby boomers gave "I paid my way through college by serving tables. I just walked up to the manager and he gave me a job." There are also threads of Penn Gillette binning resumes with sub 4.0 GPA's for McDonald's jobs, but that meme is far too complicated and contrived to explain.

Some neets just don't want to go back to society in it's current state. You see many threads comparing the degeneracy of a modern woman (e.g. a white woman race-mixing with a black man or just being promiscuous) versus a poster from Nazi Germany depicting nuclear aryan family. Again, this is an joke taken to the extreme, but it hides their possible views about today's society. They feel that with more traditional gender roles not only would women be more approachable and their chance be better, the idea of a relationship would be more attractive as opposed to "lol empowered womyn", i.e. sluts. They also hark back to the days of racial hegemony.

Another difference with Japanese hikkis, is that they become that way far earlier than their western counterparts. Many western neets lost their jobs in the economic downturn and just failed to re-enter employment as opposed to dropping out highschool. Many were coders who you can catch on the Daily Programming Threads (DPT) on /g/; some are pretty talented and are working on quite interesting projects. They even had a visual novel of SICP in the works at some point.

This post was intended to a far shorter reply, but I think it turned into a braindump about 4chan. But I'm trying to get across how 4chan enables people in the west to live the neet lifestyle. Posters even acknowledge this, "if it wasn't for 4chan I would still have a job/girlfriend/friends, instead I'm fapping to Touhou porn." It just sucks people in with it's "it's ok to be a neet" attitude.

If you're curious take a look. /b/ has devolved into some sort of infantile cesspit. /pol/ seems to be where "the happening" is at. I generally think it's best to browse 4chan while you still have a full time job. Otherwise you'll end up spending too much time there, slowly warping your mind. Before you know it you'll be fapping to futanari porn of you favorite anime telling people how jews control the world.

>inb4 jidf

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#116
Well, I highly doubt that generational social issues are going to stay confined to Japan, and I would argue that they are already common around the world at large. Here in the West, people ranging from 18 to 30 are seeing higher unemployment and higher debt levels as educational costs rise. A lot of us visiting this site may not see this as unemployment within the IT sector is not as high as other sectors, but many of my friends fit the category of highly educated and unemployed.

A few of my friends have taken to getting 3 part time pink collar jobs to try and make it on their own. They sleep maybe 4 hours each night, a little more on weekends. Some would argue that this problem is related to degrees that are not useful in the job market, but in older generations only 1/3 of the population had attended college... yet those over 60 hold over 3/4 of the USA's wealth.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#117

This is a personal anecdote, but it happened last week seems relevant-ish: My landlord is a hikikomori. He is around 50-60 years old, and refuses to leave his room in his house; he instead barks orders at his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80). She is a very kind old woman. I was shocked that he sent her to collect water money (we pay to our…

On a side note:

his extremely elderly mother (we're talking older than dirt here; I wouldn't be surprised if she was older than 80).

I found your choice of terms interesting :)

Most people in their 80s that I know seem to be doing fine, are physically and intellectually active, and I wouldn't describe them as "older than dirt" - unless you're talking about somewhat young dirt, here ;).

May I ask how old you are? I am genuinely curious, as I can picture myself thinking of an 80 year-old as "extremely old" when I was in my early twenties, but not nowadays (I'm 35)

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#118
I have to admit I was frightened when I heard of hikikomori. I am not Japanese, but I have a tendency for staying at home, sometimes for as much as a couple or three days. I thought I might be or end up like them.

I have what you would call a successfull full-time job as a programmer and my tendency for staying home was so that I could hack on things I wanted. The pressure however to try and stay ahead of the curve has always been there. Some of it came from parents and society (I'm not American either) but I would say most of it came from me seeing no future ahead of me if I got stuck at the country I was from. I would have gotten by, but I doubt I'd be happy. I'd be on a grim path. I probably felt I was a bit ahead of this curve to not be affected, but now that I'm getting older (35) I'm starting to wonder if I really fenced it off. I'm still unmarried and like to stay home; just in a different country.

What makes it hard for me to connect is not a presence of pressure to do well, but a lack of authenticity in people or events going around in the several places I've lived in the US. I'm talking about a connection. Even as a teenager I would feel some sort of connection with people around me. Now it seems there isn't enough of a will in people to do the same. Whatever dense ingredient was there has now dissipated or distributed over by time or a larger moving population.

When I read of hikikomori, I ended up writing a blog/site to record such connections. Here it is if you find it useful: hikigo com. I like these small reminders that there's enough beauty if you care enough to observe it. I never posted this site anywhere until now, because the anonymity of it is what i like most about it - as a sort of protest to the social Facebook pressure.

I hope it stays that way.

Re: Hikikomori: Why are so many Japanese men refusing to leave their rooms?

#120
post #52
post #4

Hikikomori might be a Japanese term, but its not a Japanese phenomenon. I know dozens of my American friends who do the same thing -- hide from seemingly unprecedented expectations and similarly daunting odds, hide from society in alcohol, in television, in dual 2560x1600 monitors, even in exercise. (My room was video games, and I'm glad I found the doorknob.)

The international version of the term Hikikomori is NEET http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET

Interesting... we have a similar version - "Ni-Ni" which stands for not working nor studying ("Ni estudia Ni trabaja").

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni-Ni

which according to Wikipedia is equivalent to NEET.

However, they're NOT shut-ins (many live in hovels, no place to shut in), so many become thieves and vandals.

Eighteen percent of youth in my country fall in this category (!!!!!)

Post reply on HN