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A chimp-pig hybrid origin for humans?

m.phys.org

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Re: A chimp-pig hybrid origin for humans?

#31

Post by goldfeld »

twstws wrote: post #18
gus_massa wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many hybrids are infertile. There are some documented cases of fertile hybrids in very related animals and very related plants (plants are weird!). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)#Hybrid_species But and hybrid between a chimp and a pig: simply no way! Even creating a live pig-chimp hybrid is probably almost impossible, a fertile pig-chimp hybrid would be a miracle.

This. The author makes the absurd claim that because many hybrids are fertile, any hybrid could be fertile. Using hybridization between two closely related birds to support the notion that pigs and apes could breed is ridiculous.

The scientist behind this hypothesis makes no such claim:

"For my own part, curiosity has carried me away from my old idea of reality. I no longer know what to believe. Is it possible that so many biologists might be wrong about the nature of human origins? Is it possible for a pig to hybridize with a chimpanzee? I have no way of knowing at present, but I have no logical or evidential basis for rejecting the idea. Before dismissing such a notion, I would want to be sure on some logical, evidentiary basis that I actually should dismiss it. The ramifications of any misconception on this point seem immense." --from macroevolution.net

He says it would be possible and there's evidence in physiology. Saying there's no way or that it would be a miracle (and dismissing it for that) is showing a misunderstanding of evolution. Given enough time and enough tries, it could happen.

A bacterium becoming a mitocondrium within a cell is one of the most astounding miracles of life and scientists have never been able to reproduce it (and mind you, generations of cells come by far easier and faster than of chimps and pigs), yet it happened, perhaps exactly and only once, but it happened and that's why all animals exist.

I think, like the author, that some curiosity and imagination is never a bad thing. It's led to our most interesting discoveries.

Re: A chimp-pig hybrid origin for humans?

#32

Post by hetman »

ronaldx wrote: post #26

This is highly unlikely origin story. The main problem is that genetic data strongly and consistently suggests we are further from pigs than chimpanzees are. Genetic material often finds ways of crossing species boundaries: in lower organisms, horizontal gene transfer is commonplace. But, this is just not supported by any scientific evidence.

I believe he addresses that by suggesting backcrossing with the chimp line. Still seems extraordinary such a cross should originally be even remotely viable.

Re: A chimp-pig hybrid origin for humans?

#34

Post by hetman »

While the hypothesis itself seems rather unlikely, I think the evidence is interesting enough that further investigation would certainly yield some interesting results in their own right.

Major leaps in scientific thinking can often start with some pretty radical albeit erroneous ideas. But even if not true, these ideas can encourage a fresh perspective and a new approach for teasing apart the observable world.

Re: A chimp-pig hybrid origin for humans?

#35

Post by hetman »

twstws wrote: post #16
thelibrarian wrote: post #6

There's at least one fairly well-know biology professor/blogger who is unimpressed with what he dubs the "MFAP" hypothesis: http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/07/02/the-mfap-h...

The thing I find most depressing about these crackpots is that some otherwise productive scientist has to spend an evening debunking their nonsense. And it still doesn't stop. I taught evolution for undergrads, and occasionally had to deal with these issues from students. It takes time to look into them, and no matter how thoroughly debunked the theory, some kids find them too irresistible to let go of. It undermines…

What often distinguishes the crackpot from the visionary is whether they are eventually vindicated. The latter usually begins their career being perceived as the former.

Re: A chimp-pig hybrid origin for humans?

#36

Post by nitrogen »

hetman wrote: post #35
twstws wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I find most depressing about these crackpots is that some otherwise productive scientist has to spend an evening debunking their nonsense. And it still doesn't stop. I taught evolution for undergrads, and occasionally had to deal with these issues from students. It takes time to look into them, and no matter how thoroughly debunked the theory, some kids find them too irresistible to let go of. It undermines…

What often distinguishes the crackpot from the visionary is whether they are eventually vindicated. The latter usually begins their career being perceived as the former.

This is a tautology. Of course visionaries are the ones who were vindicated.

That doesn't mean that being perceived as a crackpot is a reliable indicator of being a visionary. It's similar to the argument that opposition equals confirmation -- some religious groups and conspiracy theorists argue that the fact that people oppose them means they are right.

Re: A chimp-pig hybrid origin for humans?

#37

Post by nitrogen »

ronaldx wrote: post #28
malkia wrote: post #22

What's the different between hybrids and breeds (as in dogs for example)?

A simple way to define a 'species' is any group of creatures that can produce viable, fertile offspring. So dogs are breeds - they're part of the same species - because if you mate a great dane with a chihuahua, you'll get a fertile dog (I believe; if you plan to experiment, I recommend the chihuahua is male and great dane is female). If you're lucky, that dog will have desirable characteristics that may one day end…

I would expect that a "breed" should also be stable. That is, pairings between male and female members of the same breed should produce offspring of that same breed nearly every time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breed

Re: A chimp-pig hybrid origin for humans?

#39

Post by arcadeparade »

Geee wrote: post #11

Extremely interesting. I suggest you to read the article at http://www.macroevolution.net/human-origins.html The author seems to be a well-established scientist, and the arguments are quite plausible, given that this level of hybridization actually could be possible. What I find amazing (based on the article) is that hybridization hasn't really been researched very well, and that hybrids aren't actually infertile, on…

I cant believe how realistic an idea he made it sound.
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