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Revelations about the French Big Brother

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Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#11

Post by antninja »

It looks like with the nuclear bomb: all countries want the world to know that they have it. Are secret attacks becoming the norm and governments are telling they have the means to uncover any hidden identity?

Anyway, it would have been surprising if intelligence agencies didn't collect as much data as they can. What was the most scandalous with Prism is the methods of bullies used by civil servants against businessmen. It's fair if they can catch data discreetly, not if they threaten to imprison or kill to gain easier access to all databases.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#12

Post by rtpg »

jgrahamc wrote: post #5

So, let's see. The NSA does it, GCHQ does it, DGSE does it. The operating assumption should be that all countries are monitoring all communications for at least metadata. Personally, I would not be the slightest bit surprised to learn that all phone calls are being recorded and as much Internet traffic as possible. I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for years and years. And the…

I think people too often discount the fact that for the NSA system, there's actually oversight. Or at least they try very hard to make it seem like there is. I haven't seen that in the European stuff, and that's what worries me.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#13

Post by monsterix »

In some ways I believe that Internet has now matured up to a level where it is able to impact the Government and its functionaries in a very serious manner (Avoiding the word disruptive here, because unlike Hollywood, Government people generally take this word with a more murderous rage).

It's no longer okay to brush away stories as conspiracy theories because, well, you now know it could be true. Most likely. All this that has happened in past few weeks seems like a moment of truth to me. I have a strong feeling that the next level of impact of Internet on these Governments and arcane bureaucratic structures will be one to watch.

[Edited for spelling.]

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#14

Post by doktorn »

bnegreve wrote: post #9
jgrahamc wrote: post #5

So, let's see. The NSA does it, GCHQ does it, DGSE does it. The operating assumption should be that all countries are monitoring all communications for at least metadata. Personally, I would not be the slightest bit surprised to learn that all phone calls are being recorded and as much Internet traffic as possible. I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for years and years. And the…

> So, let's see. The NSA does it, GCHQ does it, DGSE does it. The operating assumption should be that all countries are monitoring [...] USA, UK and France are not any contry the're all at the top of this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_e... It doesn't say much about other contries.

Sweden does it as well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FRA_law

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#15

Post by morsch »

jgrahamc wrote: post #5

So, let's see. The NSA does it, GCHQ does it, DGSE does it. The operating assumption should be that all countries are monitoring all communications for at least metadata. Personally, I would not be the slightest bit surprised to learn that all phone calls are being recorded and as much Internet traffic as possible. I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for years and years. And the…

Whether or not it's surprising is totally irrelevant and you should stop pretending it isn't, if that is what you're saying.

But you've got an interesting point in that the desire has always been to capture everything -- while the technical means to do it have been available for a couple of years. Along with a further shift in how people communicate towards easily moniterable technology, that is the crux of the matter.

It was one thing to have secret societies intent on capturing everything in the 60s, when technology limited the scope of the operation. It's another thing when that intention is not readjusted to the societal and technical realities of 50 years later.

That's why it seems like such a sudden, surprising change in policy to some who haven't kept up with the technical possibilities for surveillance, while others realize it's been a slow change going on for decades now.

And of course, for the past decades some of us have been trying to point out the technical possibilities to everyone who would listen, only to get told that just because it's possible doesn't mean it's being done -- we're not surprised by Snowden's leaks, but certainly vindicated.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#16

Post by jgrahamc »

morsch wrote: post #15
jgrahamc wrote: post #5

So, let's see. The NSA does it, GCHQ does it, DGSE does it. The operating assumption should be that all countries are monitoring all communications for at least metadata. Personally, I would not be the slightest bit surprised to learn that all phone calls are being recorded and as much Internet traffic as possible. I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for years and years. And the…

Whether or not it's surprising is totally irrelevant and you should stop pretending it isn't, if that is what you're saying. But you've got an interesting point in that the desire has always been to capture everything -- while the technical means to do it have been available for a couple of years. Along with a further shift in how people communicate towards easily moniterable technology, that is the crux of the matte…

This is a discussion on HN, not in a general public forum. Sure, the general public is probably surprised by what's been revealed but we should not be.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#17

Post by grey-area »

jgrahamc wrote: post #5

So, let's see. The NSA does it, GCHQ does it, DGSE does it. The operating assumption should be that all countries are monitoring all communications for at least metadata. Personally, I would not be the slightest bit surprised to learn that all phone calls are being recorded and as much Internet traffic as possible. I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for years and years. And the…

I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for years and years.

Have you thought through the implications of this? To me capturing and storing all the information we generate is really dangerous, and there's no way I'd want a log of everything in my life to be accessible to my secret service, my government, police, and the secret services of anyone they might wish to share it with (in particular the NSA) in secret and without my permission.

You've carefully avoided stating an opinion on these actions of our security services, but presented it as a fait accompli that we may as well just live with. I disagree. They've lied to us about what they were collecting (everything) and lied to us about what it is for (terror). I see no reason to trust any assurances or controls which are introduced on access, and the only way to stop abuse is to stop collection.

It appears they're not yet at the point where they can store all information indefinitely, but that point will arrive soon, and I think we should stop them before it does. I don't even trust the current politicians and police with this information on every citizen, let alone any conceivable politician who might come to power in the next few centuries.

IMHO we should have strong protections banning outright the collection and collation of this sort of material except where there are reasons to be believe someone is a serious criminal (violence, fraud, terror), with judicial oversight, for a limited time, with the data deleted after the trial. Just as the police are not allowed to demand DNA samples from entire populations in order to solve a crime, security services should not be allowed to store our every move and thought in the name of defending liberty, it makes a mockery of the concepts they claim to be protecting, and is extremely dangerous in the long term.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#18

Post by tomelders »

jgrahamc wrote: post #5

So, let's see. The NSA does it, GCHQ does it, DGSE does it. The operating assumption should be that all countries are monitoring all communications for at least metadata. Personally, I would not be the slightest bit surprised to learn that all phone calls are being recorded and as much Internet traffic as possible. I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for years and years. And the…

And for what, with surveillance like this, how is there still crime and terrorism?

either it's ineffective or they're overselling the capabilities or they're more interested in dissidents, and judging by the way activists and whistle blowers are being treated, i suspect this is the real reason these systems exist.

EDIT: Or there's some other threat none of us know about and these systems are working perfectly at keeping us all safe... but that's a long shot.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#19

Post by jgrahamc »

grey-area wrote: post #17
jgrahamc wrote: post #5

So, let's see. The NSA does it, GCHQ does it, DGSE does it. The operating assumption should be that all countries are monitoring all communications for at least metadata. Personally, I would not be the slightest bit surprised to learn that all phone calls are being recorded and as much Internet traffic as possible. I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for years and years. And the…

I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for years and years. Have you thought through the implications of this? To me capturing and storing all the information we generate is really dangerous, and there's no way I'd want a log of everything in my life to be accessible to my secret service, my government, police, and the secret services of anyone they might wish to share it with (in…

You've carefully avoided stating an opinion on these actions of our security services, but presented it as a fait accompli that we may as well just live with

You want my opinion? I agree: it's very dangerous for the state to have detailed information about an individual's life. The potential for abuse is enormous.

Re: Revelations about the French Big Brother

#20

Post by grey-area »

jgrahamc wrote: post #19
grey-area wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not surprised by this news at all. The technical means have been there for years and years. Have you thought through the implications of this? To me capturing and storing all the information we generate is really dangerous, and there's no way I'd want a log of everything in my life to be accessible to my secret service, my government, police, and the secret services of anyone they might wish to share it with (in…

You've carefully avoided stating an opinion on these actions of our security services, but presented it as a fait accompli that we may as well just live with You want my opinion? I agree: it's very dangerous for the state to have detailed information about an individual's life. The potential for abuse is enormous.

Thank you. I find that information far more interesting than whether you are surprised by surveillance, but perhaps that's just me.
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