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Michael Hastings Sent Panicked Email Hours Before Car Crash

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Re: Michael Hastings Sent Panicked Email Hours Before Car Crash

#191

Post by pessimizer »

glhaynes wrote: post #109
jychang wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You completely misread the point. We don't know the truth, if it was foul play or not. Probably not. BUT, it doesn't matter about the size of the jump, yet the fact that it's even a POSSIBILITY THAT WE HAVE TO CONSIDER ... is scary. Plus, it's not as large of a leap as you think, it goes hand in hand. Everyone is familiar with journalists disappearing in countries like Turkey.

No, you don't get to do that. You can't say "I'm speculating that this person might have been murdered. Wow, look at what the world is coming to, that people are even considering the possibility that this person was murdered. (Besides, sometimes people do get murdered...)" This is begging the question in its most basic form.

If you are using your suspicion as an argument to prove that Hastings was murdered. If you are saying that you are sad or afraid that you are suspicious when once you wouldn't have been, that's just a simple statement of fact.

I don't think you can ever legitimately accuse someone of a logical fallacy who isn't making an argument.

Re: Michael Hastings Sent Panicked Email Hours Before Car Crash

#192

Post by martinlandau »

Taylorious wrote: post #95
sage_joch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, we really don't know. But I'm extremely uncomfortable by the fact that foul play is a real possibility. We already know that the federal government is operating largely in secret and without regard to the law (their insistence that are indeed following their own secret set of laws doesn't provide me much solace). We already know that various press organizations have been wiretapped. I feel like I've woken up in…

Foul play is almost always a possibility if you over analyze things and don't have a lot evidence. If someone randomly kills them self by jumping off a bridge and no one sees it happen, there is no suicide note, or any other signs, then there could have been foul play because there is no evidence to prove or disprove it. For all anyone knows the person was pushed off the bridge by a passer by. The whole NSA story is…

If we are going to speculate, perhaps Hastings is not dead, maybe he faked his own death to be with Elvis or the martians, and escape the government (I just watched a movie with Orson Wells - the third man - about this) Maybe the government faked his death like they did Osama Bin Laden for whatever reason? (So they can torture and restrain him and no one will know or care)

If you do a search for Economic Hitman Perkins, he was former NSA type who went around the global trying to get political leaders to do oil contracts and such that benefitted the west, if they didn't play ball, CIA Jackals were sent in to assassinate the people, Perkins said the only reason he decided to expose this later on was because he didn't want his daughter growing up in that kind of society where people are murdered for thier beliefs and trying to help thier citizens. Maybe like the comments below, Perkins is just a plant trying to "enhance" the fear of the CIA/NSA to get more people to respect them and they never killed anyone or very few of the deaths that are attributed to them. In the end, what does any of it all really matter? We all have a limited time to exist, and my friend Weev says to have fun, get lots of LULZ, face the madness of this world with Absurdity. Frank Sinatra said to leave them laughing when you go, take us out Frankie...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVVmig6lR0w

Re: Michael Hastings Sent Panicked Email Hours Before Car Crash

#193

Post by flyinRyan »

Taylorious wrote: post #95
sage_joch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, we really don't know. But I'm extremely uncomfortable by the fact that foul play is a real possibility. We already know that the federal government is operating largely in secret and without regard to the law (their insistence that are indeed following their own secret set of laws doesn't provide me much solace). We already know that various press organizations have been wiretapped. I feel like I've woken up in…

Foul play is almost always a possibility if you over analyze things and don't have a lot evidence. If someone randomly kills them self by jumping off a bridge and no one sees it happen, there is no suicide note, or any other signs, then there could have been foul play because there is no evidence to prove or disprove it. For all anyone knows the person was pushed off the bridge by a passer by. The whole NSA story is…

Your conspiracy-theory-mocking is misplaced here since we have actually found a lot of scary conspiracies related to the US government lately.

I also laugh at people who believe in flying saucers and so on. But I'd probably stop if an actual flying saucer landed on the highway and started blowing things up.

Re: Michael Hastings Sent Panicked Email Hours Before Car Crash

#194

Post by tptacek »

gruseom wrote: post #167
tptacek wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe this car wreck was suspicious? You're right that the term "conspiracy theory" is dismissive. Is it wrong to be dismissive of the theory that Hastings was killed using his car?

I doubt it. And I get why you might find the thread annoying. But I believe people mostly use the term "conspiracy theory" to reinforce the assumptions of their own worldview. The comment to which I replied seems like a good example of that, since it didn't react to anything specific about this case (disavowed any knowledge of it, in fact), only the form that it took. One piece of evidence for this security-blanket i…

The very first thread HN had about Hastings crash was full of good comments like that --- someone whose cofounder died in a similar crash in a BMW, someone who posted a video(!) of a car crashing into a tollbooth and bursting into flames, a comment from 'JshWright who's been a firefighter/EMT for 10 years talking about the burn pattern in the video, another comment explaining how much worse the fire probably looked because of the limits of nighttime photography, comments from international assassination expert 'tzs about the Wil-E-Coyote nature of a plot to kill someone with an exploding car.

It was great.

But because of the nature of HN, all it takes is for the same story to get posted again and again, and eventually we get a thread that makes it to the top of the front page without all that high-quality debunking.

Incidentally: another group of people using conspiracy-theoretic putdowns to dismiss the notion that Hastings was murdered: journalists. Google [hastings conspiracy theory]. Or [ambinder hastings]. Or [hastings truthers].

Re: Michael Hastings Sent Panicked Email Hours Before Car Crash

#195

Post by flyinRyan »

sitkack wrote: post #165
TechNewb wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonder if his notes could be found, I imagine they would have been cloud backed.

Ask the NSA for a copy?

I wouldn't do that unless you have a really old car with no electronics to drive.

Re: Michael Hastings Sent Panicked Email Hours Before Car Crash

#196

Post by flyinRyan »

nhebb wrote: post #86
sage_joch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, we really don't know. But I'm extremely uncomfortable by the fact that foul play is a real possibility. We already know that the federal government is operating largely in secret and without regard to the law (their insistence that are indeed following their own secret set of laws doesn't provide me much solace). We already know that various press organizations have been wiretapped. I feel like I've woken up in…

> How long will it be before people no longer feel safe expressing opinions online? Since about three months ago: http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/07/01/197669...

Wow, avoided the airport because of this kind of insanity? We brought it to your house! I remember just a few short months ago, making fun of the British for arresting someone for tweeting...

Re: Michael Hastings Sent Panicked Email Hours Before Car Crash

#197

Post by flyinRyan »

logn wrote: post #171
sage_joch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, we really don't know. But I'm extremely uncomfortable by the fact that foul play is a real possibility. We already know that the federal government is operating largely in secret and without regard to the law (their insistence that are indeed following their own secret set of laws doesn't provide me much solace). We already know that various press organizations have been wiretapped. I feel like I've woken up in…

> I feel like I've woken up into a country I no longer recognize. I've seriously thought about moving to New Zealand. Beautiful country, no software patents, universal healthcare, good schools. I think maybe the era of the US being the best place to be (or at least many people thinking that) is over.

I think that era was actually over decades ago. It's just that thanks to the internet, Americans (like me) are beginning to realize it.

Re: Michael Hastings Sent Panicked Email Hours Before Car Crash

#198

Post by pessimizer »

derleth wrote: post #176
JshWright wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a firefighter, I've seen many cars burn like that. That's what vehicle fires look like. Car interiors are _full_ of flammable stuff. Seat cushions, plastics, rubber... etc... The energy output of a burning car is really incredible.

As an experienced Internet denizen who has seen dozens of conspiracy theories play out, the person I'm responding to is playing a fool's game and will be shouted down and ignored by everyone who wants a neat little conspiratorial story to go with their morning breakfast. Clear, simple explanations are death to conspiracy theories, so they are ignored and the people who make them are vilified at every turn.

The 'utterly dismissive of the possibility' people are also all over discussions like these, dismissing speculation with arguments that tend to amount to "oh, please!" and "oh, come on!"

In fact, these discussions usually amount to amateur physicists insisting that somewhat unusual phenomena are physically impossible (usually citing retired fire chiefs, their uncle who is a mechanic, and 'common sense'), and a bunch of authoritarians replying with "Oh, please - tinfoil hat!"

I'm surprised that people don't know how eager cars are to burn esp in light of this recent fire: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-05-06/news/chi-calif...

There wasn't even a crash and five women burned to death during the time it took to notice the fire, communicate that to the driver, pull over, and open the back door.

Re: Michael Hastings Sent Panicked Email Hours Before Car Crash

#199

Post by corresation »

edwardunknown wrote: post #137
smoyer wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And suddenly the conspiracy theorists are wondering if Taylorious works for the NSA ;) Your points are well organized and I tend to agree (especially that there would be an easier way to get rid of him), but I don't think you'll stop those that see a conspiracy around every corner. I tend to see our government (today) as a very mismanaged large corporation. There are people over-reaching and those above them are tryi…

I'm usually happy to beat up on conspiracy theorists, I actually sort of hate them. However this guy took down a General .

To be more accurate, the general brought down himself: McCrystal had developed an extremely inflated sense of self and irreplaceability, and was openly dismissive of civilian oversight (which is kind of worrisome coming from a man who directs weapons). The reporter simply reported how McCrystal was openly acting around him, leading to the administration taking action.

I only say this because people often talk about that as if the reporter had done deep black ops to gain covert information, thus making enemies throughout the establishment, when in reality he simply reported quotes directly fed to him, and in some ways acting on behalf of the establishment.

Re: Michael Hastings Sent Panicked Email Hours Before Car Crash

#200

Post by tptacek »

samstave wrote: post #169
tzs wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assassination by remote controlling the target's car is a Wile E. Coyote level plan. It's hard to imagine any remotely competent government group or organized crime group choosing it. Given the nature of his work, there are much easier methods that would be less work to carry out, have much lower risk of failure, and have much lower risk of leaving behind evidence that might raise suspicion or lead back to those resp…

http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf Check this out and look at the source as well as take some time to critically think about the technical resources a group like the NSA has vs. the researchers of this paper... You think that "It's hard to imagine any remotely competent government group or organized crime group" choosing it" is an informed position? I would HOPE you are aware of Stucnet, as well as Du…

He's not saying it's impossible to crash a car using a telematics exploit. He's saying that's a uniquely stupid way to have someone killed. 40-60mph collisions between trees and modern cars aren't uniformly fatal; instead of killing Hastings, the attack was equally likely to have left a witness talking about how all the sudden his car started driving itself.

This guy's car crashed into a tree. He was doing national security reporting. That's all the factual information you have right now. But peoples' cars crash into trees all the time. Contrary to message board opinion, many of those cars do indeed catch fire. Weigh against that the silliness of this particular means of assassinating someone. Occam's Razor kicks in.

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