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Dwarf Fortress in 2013

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Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#31

Post by James_Duval »

exDM69 wrote: post #14
sage_joch wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever since I read the NY Times article posted here a couple years ago (see below), I have had a similar response. I love reading about Dwarf Fortress, but I'm hesitant to actually try it. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-of...

You guys should just try the game. There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span. You can grok the basics of the game in an hour or so by following a beginner tutorial. During your first few hours you will fail your first few fortresses. After your first session, you shoul…

Well - you CAN order your dwarves around. It's just ludicrously complex.

You can also manipulate world-gen so you have an easier time of it (making the game essentially Harvest Moon with occasional killer fish), but where's the fun in that?

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#32

Post by Sharlin »

derleth wrote: post #27
axefrog wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with you. I think I'm just bitter because I hate bad UIs and it stops me from properly exploring the game. I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.

> I hate bad UIs You hate UIs you don't like. Which is a tautology. The interesting part here is that you've managed to convince yourself that UIs you don't like are objectively bad, and that anyone who does like such UIs is wrong in some factual way, as opposed to being 'wrong' in the purely subjective way everyone who disagrees with us on a matter of taste is. Go too far in this direction and you end up with Jef Ra…

There are plenty of things about UIs that are pretty objectively bad. Inconsistency, for one. I don't think there are lots of people who like having to memorize multiple ways of doing the same thing depending on the view.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#33

Post by imdsm »

kaoD wrote: post #26
axefrog wrote: post #16

"It's not like people see our $50,000 a year and think 'Hey, I want a piece of that pie.' They'd much rather look towards things like Minecraft, where there are hundreds of millions of dollars." The brothers have this massive, massive blindspot regarding the importance of the UI. That $50,000 cap they perceive is barely scratching the surface of what would be possible for them if they made the damn thing a bit more a…

It's not the ASCII interface. I love ASCII art, and they managed to pull a high information density. You have graphic tile sets too. Although fan-made, these have a great quality. The problem is the inconsistent input system. The same task uses different shortcuts in each menu, which makes it hard to remember. Even selecting rectangular regions of the world is done in a particular way depending on what you are doing.…

But the thing is, you get over that. Would I trade some of the depth of features for a better interface? No. Would I make the combat arcade-like in return for a better interface? No.

I play the game for the fact that it is infinitely replayable. I play it so much that the menu is now ingrained into my very being. If the interface was to change, it would confuse me. It would take a lot of getting use to. It could work out better in the future, but right now, it at least works.

Everyone who plays it has different parts they like and dislike. Personally, I'd love it to have a nice API, so I didn't have to go through DFHack for every util I want to write. I'd pick that over a new UI.

Sure, it's inconsistent, but the inconsistency is consistent. I'll take that.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#34

Post by imdsm »

sage_joch wrote: post #5
boneheadmed wrote: post #2

I've been reading articles about this fascinating game for several days now, but haven't had the guts to invest the time into it given its steep learning curve. Kudos to these guys for doing exactly what they want to do and (yet) still making a living by coding.

Ever since I read the NY Times article posted here a couple years ago (see below), I have had a similar response. I love reading about Dwarf Fortress, but I'm hesitant to actually try it. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-of...

You guys should try it. Get the LazyNewbPack, that is a windows bundle which comes with a few utils, tilesets etc. Check out the wiki (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/), it's the best website on the internet. If you're still stuck, visit the df subreddit and ask for help, the people there are pretty awesome (http://www.reddit.com/r/dwarffortress).

It takes some getting into, but once you're in, you're in.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#35

Post by pessimizer »

axefrog wrote: post #19
robbiep wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are, of course, totally right. But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big bucks. They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following, earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively passi…

I don't disagree with you. I think I'm just bitter because I hate bad UIs and it stops me from properly exploring the game. I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.

Their creation has a bad UI. The barrier is a part of the work. You could take the swearing out of The Godfather in order to make it more accessible, but what people would be accessing would not really be The Godfather anymore.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#36

Post by tluyben2 »

ecdavis wrote: post #10
boneheadmed wrote: post #2

I've been reading articles about this fascinating game for several days now, but haven't had the guts to invest the time into it given its steep learning curve. Kudos to these guys for doing exactly what they want to do and (yet) still making a living by coding.

It's actually a lot more accessible than it seems. For anyone interested in learning to play DF, I highly recommend YouTube user 51ppycup's "Dwarf Fortress for Dummies" series - he gets the basics across really well and you'll be striking the earth in no time. Dwarf Fortress for Dummies 2012: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD1A3FE72C0DCAC66

Do you know of any recent non-video tutorials. Personally I really don't find them very easy to follow. Pausing and trying to jump back and forward is thoroughly annoying. Besides laziness I'm not sure why people make video tutorials at all for anything technical but that might be just me. Text with screenshots is miles ahead. Again, IMHO. Making video tutorials, especially unrehearsed and unedited with tons of Uhhmm eh, and now then... are just lazy versus text + screenshots.

These ones were ok, but they were too slow in places and too fast in other places; I had a hard time learning much from them without continuously reverting back to the wiki to figure out what I really can or should do.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#37

Post by StevenRayOrr »

morsch wrote: post #29
fleshgolem wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also hilariously outdated, to the point that the game had a whole dimension less than it does now. Still a great read though

I loved reading Boatmurdered many months ago; is there anything of similar quality that reflects the current state of affairs in DF?

Sadly, no. While there are numerous different attempts at LPs and stories within DF, nothing manages to both capture the game itself while being laugh out loud funny. It really is one of those rarely replicated gems.

Edit: Although I will say that Tim Denee's attempts come closest (see jayrobin's comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5983250).

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#38

Post by StevenRayOrr »

James_Duval wrote: post #31
exDM69 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You guys should just try the game. There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span. You can grok the basics of the game in an hour or so by following a beginner tutorial. During your first few hours you will fail your first few fortresses. After your first session, you shoul…

Well - you CAN order your dwarves around. It's just ludicrously complex. You can also manipulate world-gen so you have an easier time of it (making the game essentially Harvest Moon with occasional killer fish), but where's the fun in that?

As someone who played far too much emulator Harvest Moon, I think you are selling short the prospect of such a game + occasional killer fish.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#39

Post by lusr »

robbiep wrote: post #18
axefrog wrote: post #16

"It's not like people see our $50,000 a year and think 'Hey, I want a piece of that pie.' They'd much rather look towards things like Minecraft, where there are hundreds of millions of dollars." The brothers have this massive, massive blindspot regarding the importance of the UI. That $50,000 cap they perceive is barely scratching the surface of what would be possible for them if they made the damn thing a bit more a…

You are, of course, totally right. But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big bucks. They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following, earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively passi…

Is this not a short-sighted view?

A middle class salary they can survive on for how long? When that source of income dries up they'll be unable to continue working on their passion without spending time and effort finding an additional source of income.

Alternatively, if they open themselves up to a strategy enabling a greater income they could potentially retire in a very short time with indefinite financial security and the option to pursue their passion as long as they like.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#40

Post by derleth »

Sharlin wrote: post #32
derleth wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hate bad UIs You hate UIs you don't like. Which is a tautology. The interesting part here is that you've managed to convince yourself that UIs you don't like are objectively bad, and that anyone who does like such UIs is wrong in some factual way, as opposed to being 'wrong' in the purely subjective way everyone who disagrees with us on a matter of taste is. Go too far in this direction and you end up with Jef Ra…

There are plenty of things about UIs that are pretty objectively bad. Inconsistency, for one. I don't think there are lots of people who like having to memorize multiple ways of doing the same thing depending on the view.

All UIs are inconsistent to some extent, like with menus, or with how the steering wheel behaves when backing a car up. All we demand is that it be done well, which is a tautology.
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