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Internet Explorer 11: “Don’t call me IE”

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Re: Internet Explorer 11: “Don’t call me IE”

#181

Post by drewcoo »

tomelders wrote: post #25

I still don't forgive Microsoft for being absolutely massive tools in the past. As such, they have a higher bar to jump over if they want me to acknowledge that they have created a "modern" browser. They have to make a browser that beats every other browser in it's standards compliance, stability and performance. They have to create the greatest browser that has ever been and ever will be. And only then will I even c…

You may be cranky, but you're obviously not that old. In ye olden times IE was actually the decent browser (that you didn't have to pay for). It's just that they won the browser wars and let things stagnate. Once they stopped leading they became followers (when they moved at all). This is not recent history. It is lore. But lore that the elder devs should know.

As an ex-'softie I can tell you that the engineers from IE were generally not happy with this situation. Or with all of the acrobatics to support non-standard crap. But I have yet to meet anyone who really understands how the winds of decision-making at Microsoft get their first breaths. Basically, it was situation == nobody happy, even most folks at the borg.

I apologize if my response isn't full of data. I don't understand how a troll post hit the top of the discussion page and thought it deserved a response, even a fluffy one full of hearsay.

Re: Internet Explorer 11: “Don’t call me IE”

#183

Post by kryten »

pjmlp wrote: post #177
kryten wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no cool stuff. They fixed a load of stuff, threw new versions out and spun it as marketing. It's not cool if you have to pay for it at a rapidly growing pace.

Visual Studio does have quite a few improvements, specially in what concerns debugging asynchronous code and DirectX. Unity is now a first class citizen for development of games on Windows. Windows 8.1 brings quite a few new APIs, better interaction with .NET projections. JIT, GC and ASP.NET improvements. The message is, they could have thrown a RSS Reader attitude to .NET, instead they are paying developers to fix t…

I am an MSDN subscriber as are the other 100 people we employ. Definitely not free.

Really don't care about Windows 8.1 APIs. The only thing that concerns me is web and WPF Desktop apps in C# as that's what powers my industry.

Compare to the Java EE ecosystem. Costing:

IDE - free (Eclipse/NetBeans)

Server - free (GlassFish/Tomcat on Ubuntu)

Database - free (PostgreSQL on Ubuntu).

Not only that, your profiler, code review, automated build, version control and testing platforms are also 100% free compared to DotTrace, TFS etc.

Re: Internet Explorer 11: “Don’t call me IE”

#184

Post by pjmlp »

kryten wrote: post #183
pjmlp wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Visual Studio does have quite a few improvements, specially in what concerns debugging asynchronous code and DirectX. Unity is now a first class citizen for development of games on Windows. Windows 8.1 brings quite a few new APIs, better interaction with .NET projections. JIT, GC and ASP.NET improvements. The message is, they could have thrown a RSS Reader attitude to .NET, instead they are paying developers to fix t…

I am an MSDN subscriber as are the other 100 people we employ. Definitely not free. Really don't care about Windows 8.1 APIs. The only thing that concerns me is web and WPF Desktop apps in C# as that's what powers my industry. Compare to the Java EE ecosystem. Costing: IDE - free (Eclipse/NetBeans) Server - free (GlassFish/Tomcat on Ubuntu) Database - free (PostgreSQL on Ubuntu). Not only that, your profiler, code re…

> I am an MSDN subscriber as are the other 100 people we employ. Definitely not free.

It is a matter of scale.

The type of companies I work for, the MSDN subscription is done at enterprise level. Sure it is expensive, but still cheaper than buying individual products, and gives the liberty to access new software versions.

It feels as if it was free, hence my quotes around free.

> Compare to the Java EE ecosystem.

True, in many things the Java ecosystem is more open source friendly, because the money comes from consulting or selling books, not from direct sale of tooling.

Ever tried to develop Eclipse Ecore plugins without buying the books from Eclipse Foundation?

I am fully aware of it, my employer was a Java/C++ shop until 2009, date when we started delivery .NET solutions additionally.

On the world consulting world my employer targets, there are lots of commercial tools to chose from,

Websphere, Weblogic, Oracle DB, Informix, DB2, Rational Rose, Clearcase, Intel C++, Intel VTune, Portland Group Fortran/C/C++, InteliJ, Delphi, Together, Sybase, HP-UX, Solaris, ...

Re: Internet Explorer 11: “Don’t call me IE”

#185

Post by prakashk »

tomelders wrote: post #25

I still don't forgive Microsoft for being absolutely massive tools in the past. As such, they have a higher bar to jump over if they want me to acknowledge that they have created a "modern" browser. They have to make a browser that beats every other browser in it's standards compliance, stability and performance. They have to create the greatest browser that has ever been and ever will be. And only then will I even c…

> They have to make a browser that beats every other browser in it's standards compliance, stability and performance. They have to create the greatest browser that has ever been and ever will be.

I will add one more thing. They have to make the browser not just for Windows platform, but for all major platforms (Mac and Linux).

Re: Internet Explorer 11: “Don’t call me IE”

#186

Post by teyc »

binarycrusader wrote: post #149
spamizbad wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really good to hear. But why was the non-standard way even an option?

Because, sometimes, standards are wrong, purposefully allow implementation-specific choices, or are helplessly vague and everyone can't agree on the interpretation. However, the right answer is usually to exceed the requirements of the standard in way that best benefits the consumer and meets business goals.

The IE box model actually made for sense if you wanted your fluid layout to look good.

Re: Internet Explorer 11: “Don’t call me IE”

#188

Post by jgeerts »

bad_user wrote: post #122
MichaelGG wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take, for instance, SQL Server. It's become quite an interesting and capable platform over the last decade. It used to be that Microsoft took the stance that hardware improvements were the customer's benefit, so they'd license per socket, full stop. They used to mock Oracle with their licensing depending on what kind of CPU and how powerful it was. Latest SQL Server? Yep, you pay depending on the CPU vendor (AMD or I…

Just use something open-source - you'll get the Awesome [1] edition on any kind of chip. I never understood why some people prefer to buy licensed stuff from Oracle or Microsoft. Do you like pain? [1] http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2009/07/oh-you-wanted-aweso...

That article from codinghorror is absolutely brilliantly written. But it's true, I wish there was a counter somewhere about how many millions/billions were lost by web developers trying to make things look like a webpage inside IE. I will call the new version IE too because I know that it will suck, it will. They have good programmers, they bring pc to the masses, I give them that but they have no clue about design or user experience and intuitiveness, they never have and never will. It's just a coorporation with strict bureaucracy where a good developer gets absolutely nothing done.

Re: Internet Explorer 11: “Don’t call me IE”

#189

Post by adamconroy »

joenathan wrote: post #171
adamconroy wrote: post #155

Why do they even call it 'internet' explorer? It really is just a 'web' explorer isn't it?

Why do they even call it Firefox? Where's the fox on fire?

Well firefox is obviously just an arbitrary name. IE is attempting to be a name that means something, except it's a misnomer.
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