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Dwarf Fortress in 2013

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Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#11

Post by qznc »

_pmf_ wrote: post #8
boneheadmed wrote: post #2

I've been reading articles about this fascinating game for several days now, but haven't had the guts to invest the time into it given its steep learning curve. Kudos to these guys for doing exactly what they want to do and (yet) still making a living by coding.

> but haven't had the guts to invest the time into it given its steep learning curve And by steep, you mean vertical.

Actually, flat.

A learning curve usually is time on x-axis and knowledge-percentage on y-axis. If knowledge-percentage only slowly increases the curve is flat. A nearly vertical curve means you learn fast.

This is a little bit like educating people about kerning [0]. For another example, a "quantum leap" is basically the smallest possible leap you can do.

[0] http://xkcd.com/1015/

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#12

Post by exDM69 »

sgrove wrote: post #9
cpeterso wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are just curious about the game, there are many "Let's Play Dwarf Fortress" videos on YouTube. Expert players talk through the game features and progression.

Any recommendations for non-players looking to get sucked into whatever it is that makes it so intriguing?

Unfortunately, I don't think that Dwarf Fortress is a game that is enjoyable if you just look at someone else playing it. There's too much little stuff going on in the screen to figure out what the big stuff is and the pace of the game can be slow. There are a few good video tutorials, though.

Just try the game.

edit: there are some tools you can use to visualize your dungeons and what is going on there. There might be nice videos of some 3d-renderings of fortresses that might be nice to give you an idea of the game.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#13

Post by samstave »

qznc wrote: post #11
_pmf_ wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but haven't had the guts to invest the time into it given its steep learning curve And by steep, you mean vertical.

Actually, flat. A learning curve usually is time on x-axis and knowledge-percentage on y-axis. If knowledge-percentage only slowly increases the curve is flat. A nearly vertical curve means you learn fast. This is a little bit like educating people about kerning [0]. For another example, a "quantum leap" is basically the smallest possible leap you can do. [0] http://xkcd.com/1015/

Or if by vertical he means running face first into a wall...

Upvotes for both though...

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#14

Post by exDM69 »

sage_joch wrote: post #5
boneheadmed wrote: post #2

I've been reading articles about this fascinating game for several days now, but haven't had the guts to invest the time into it given its steep learning curve. Kudos to these guys for doing exactly what they want to do and (yet) still making a living by coding.

Ever since I read the NY Times article posted here a couple years ago (see below), I have had a similar response. I love reading about Dwarf Fortress, but I'm hesitant to actually try it. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/magazine/the-brilliance-of...

You guys should just try the game. There have been a few articles that highlight the difficulty of the game but that is only in comparison to modern console games targeted at soda guzzling teens with a one second attention span.

You can grok the basics of the game in an hour or so by following a beginner tutorial. During your first few hours you will fail your first few fortresses.

After your first session, you should have a grasp of things and the next time you should be able to just pick up the game and get back to it.

I think the time suck aspect of this game is exaggerated a lot. You can pause and save the game at any point and get back to it later.

There's one thing that some of the tutorials and introductions don't make clear: you control the fortress, not the individual dwarfs.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#15

Post by ricree »

jmduke wrote: post #4

If the history of Dwarf Fortress interests you, I recommend you check out the history of roguelike games (probably the nerdiest of all my passions.) Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup, for example, is a beautiful illustration of applying open source software development tenets to a massive game, as dozens of contributors have continuously evolved and enhanced it over time (and its massively fun to boot.)

Speaking of the history of roguelikes, I've been pretty impressed by Nicolas Casalini, aka Darkgod. I'm not sure exactly how long he's been involved in the scene, but he's been developing since at least Pernband back in the late 90s.

His Tome2, in the early part of the last decade, was arguably the pinnacle of old-school band style roguelikes (as opposed to the hack style popularized by nethack, or more modern, user-friendly ones that have been cropping up the past couple years). The current Tales of Maj'Eyal is one of the most polished, engaging roguelikes I've come across.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#16

Post by axefrog »

"It's not like people see our $50,000 a year and think 'Hey, I want a piece of that pie.' They'd much rather look towards things like Minecraft, where there are hundreds of millions of dollars."

The brothers have this massive, massive blindspot regarding the importance of the UI. That $50,000 cap they perceive is barely scratching the surface of what would be possible for them if they made the damn thing a bit more accessible to the average person. It's great that their small niche base loves ASCII art and doesn't mind fumbling their way through a hostile interface in order to play the game, but that is the primary reason the game stays confined within a tiny niche corner of the gaming market.

They have the real possibility that if they did that seed work, even just on exposing an API into the game, as opposed to venturing into a full-on UI overhaul, that enough new people would be introduced to the game that they could hire a third developer to focus specifically on the API and UI aspects of the game, leaving them free to keep working on the bits they love.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#17

Post by fleshgolem »

alex_c wrote: post #7

For anyone unfamiliar with Dwarf Fortress and wondering what all the fuss is about, I recommend the classic 'Boatmurdered' chronicles: http://lparchive.org/Dwarf-Fortress-Boatmurdered/ It's a fairly long read, but as always when Dwarf Fortress is involved, it's well worth the effort.

It's also hilariously outdated, to the point that the game had a whole dimension less than it does now.

Still a great read though

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#18

Post by robbiep »

axefrog wrote: post #16

"It's not like people see our $50,000 a year and think 'Hey, I want a piece of that pie.' They'd much rather look towards things like Minecraft, where there are hundreds of millions of dollars." The brothers have this massive, massive blindspot regarding the importance of the UI. That $50,000 cap they perceive is barely scratching the surface of what would be possible for them if they made the damn thing a bit more a…

You are, of course, totally right.

But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big bucks.

They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following, earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively passionate about. In fact, it seems that what they have is all they ever want in life. They are in their nirvana.

Good for them!

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#19

Post by axefrog »

robbiep wrote: post #18
axefrog wrote: post #16

"It's not like people see our $50,000 a year and think 'Hey, I want a piece of that pie.' They'd much rather look towards things like Minecraft, where there are hundreds of millions of dollars." The brothers have this massive, massive blindspot regarding the importance of the UI. That $50,000 cap they perceive is barely scratching the surface of what would be possible for them if they made the damn thing a bit more a…

You are, of course, totally right. But do you know much about dwarf fortress? The brothers have responded to questions about this a number of times (regarding UI) but more importantly than that, it appears that they don't particuarly care about making the big bucks. They are totally happy just pottering along with a loyal hardcore following, earning a very middle class salary, doing something they are massively passi…

I don't disagree with you. I think I'm just bitter because I hate bad UIs and it stops me from properly exploring the game. I don't understand why they don't care about the fact that so many people will never experience their creation because of the unnecessary barrier they've created.

Re: Dwarf Fortress in 2013

#20

Post by epaga »

qznc wrote: post #11
_pmf_ wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but haven't had the guts to invest the time into it given its steep learning curve And by steep, you mean vertical.

Actually, flat. A learning curve usually is time on x-axis and knowledge-percentage on y-axis. If knowledge-percentage only slowly increases the curve is flat. A nearly vertical curve means you learn fast. This is a little bit like educating people about kerning [0]. For another example, a "quantum leap" is basically the smallest possible leap you can do. [0] http://xkcd.com/1015/

I always assumed the "learning curve" is the curve required to make progress in the game, i.e. the x-axis is "progress in the game" and the y-axis is "knowledge-percentage".
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