Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#211

Post by cafard » Tue, Jul 02, 2013, 11:52 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #112

I grew up (in Ireland) with single-sex schooling until age 12-3 (primary) and mixed secondary. That has its own potential pitfalls (eg bullying, more playground fights) but I think there are benefits too. Also, in primary school it's the same teacher all day for a full year (or two) at a time, which makes it a lot easier for the teacher to know each pupil and manage the classroom appropriately. I'm unsure why America…

It varies considerably. Most public schools break have either a middle school or junior high school (grades 6-8 or 7-9) between primary and secondary grades. But most Catholic parochial schools run to 8th grade. A lot of private schools run from 6th to 12th grade on the same campus, some 3rd to 12th.

I suspect that the break is because in the middle years it becomes harder to find a teacher who can do everything--reading, history, math--adequately. A lot of what is called "science" in American primary schools I would call "environmental civics"--recycling is good; don't litter. Then in 7th or 8th grades one can actually encounter chemistry labs.

(On the other hand, in my 7th (8th?) grade science class a big chunk of time was given up to the evils of drugs; I didn't particularly disagree, but bilged the class because I found it tedious to cull clippings about overdoses or LSD flashback. And I have no idea what I might have learned in the "science" lessons of the earlier grades--how many planets, maybe.)

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#212

Post by kawsper » Tue, Jul 02, 2013, 12:05 PM UTC

magicalist wrote: post #141

kawsper wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about schools, but the kindergarten that I went to was a "nature"-kindergarten, where we were out in the forest 80% of the day, no matter if it rained or snowed. I must have catched a whole forest of insects, and investigated them. It is very popular in Denmark, and I love the forest and the outdoor because of it, especially the different seasons and their impact on nature.

That sounds amazing . Google suggests "Waldkindergarten", at least as a name for the general category. Is that correct? Maybe just in Germany? Edit: that wikipedia article is maybe the worst thing ever. Learning to be comfortable in a natural environment, more free-form play, these are good things in an of themselves. I don't understand why people need to fall back on crackpot theories to justify a program like this.

In Denmark it is named "Skovbørnehave" which translates to "Forest kindergarten".

I am actually a bit surprised that it worked, because we ran around without much supervision, but we knew exactly where we were allowed to be, and when we were too far away from the group.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#213

Post by VLM » Tue, Jul 02, 2013, 12:56 PM UTC

PebblesRox wrote: post #187

VLM wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Look at tiger cubs" LOL I read that the first time as a Cub Scouts reference and agreed completely. You might be surprised just how much of your "thought experiment" vaguely resembles the many Cub Scout pack meetings I've attended, other than the pack meetings only being about 2 hours every other week rather than 8 hours every weekday. Like most organizations, the Scouts get many things right and a couple things wro…

I've heard good things about Adventure Scouts from people who did it growing up. It's co-ed and from what I've heard, they focus on outdoor exploration and survival skills. I wish I'd been able to do something like that as a kid. I'm definitely looking into it if I ever have kids of my own : ) Adventure Scouts: http://www.adventurescoutsusa.org/

If we're going to list groups that meet 1000 miles away from home, may as well list the Hacker Scouts org

http://hacker-scouts.org/

The weirdest part of the whole thing, is scouting originally started as "us boys wanna play pretend Army Special Forces, and whenever kids have fun, the adults descend on them with rules and regulations to eliminate as much fun as possible" much like little league, school, etc, and roughly a century of intense topic drift later, scouting has turned into boys programming arduinos and girl's parents selling cookies. Not that any of it is wrong, I'm just astounded at the scale of the topic drift.

I never fail to be amused at the whole "back to basics" people WRT scouting, they don't know enough history to realize they might "win" the sex and religion thing, but going "back to basics" means no more pinewood derby, no more blue and gold dinner, none of the modern stuff, just extreme hardcore camping and a bit of marksmanship, pretty much.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#214

Post by melindajb » Tue, Jul 02, 2013, 4:56 PM UTC

gthrowaway wrote: post #137

Alex3917 wrote: post #57

"While Reichert and Hawley's research was conducted in all-boys schools, these lessons can be used in all classrooms, with both boys and girls." Not true, research shows that girls do worse when their performance is evaluated in relation to others (competitively), as opposed to when their performance is evaluated against an objective standard.

Sad that I need a throwaway account to talk about this, but such is life. Spend some time doing searches on terms like "gender grading gap" and reading the recent research. What you find may surprise you, is consistent across multiple Western democracies, and can be summarized thusly: * When assessment is left to teachers, there is a grading gap in favor of girls; girls receive grades that are inflated relative to th…

I'm confused about a so called achievement gap when men still hold the majority of highest paying and most powerful jobs in the country.

I'd truly like to understand what you mean by this.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#215

Post by kragen » Tue, Jul 02, 2013, 5:03 PM UTC

Camillo wrote: post #206

ef4 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that thread is convincing. The one substantial comment makes assertions with very little evidence. Here's some evidence: Rockefeller's General Education Board wrote the following in 1906: "In our dreams...people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and re…

> Protestants of Northern European descent were horrified by all the "dirty", "drunken", Catholic Southern European and/or Irish immigrants who didn't share their culture. As a Southern European, I find that idea hilarious. Drunkenness is far more pervasive and culturally ingrained in Northern Europe and in America than in Southern Europe. If all you've ever known is America, you may find it hard to understand just h…

That was then, this is now. At the time, they also thought the Germans were lazy and stupid.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#216

Post by ronaldx » Tue, Jul 02, 2013, 6:43 PM UTC

ronaldx wrote: post #154

sarchertech wrote: post #23

School is half education and half babysitting. The problem is that schools aren't aware of that, and they try to cram too much learning/work into a day at school. Kids just don't have the attention span. College isn't taught this way. Colleges realize that even young adults can't handle 40 hours a week of continual instruction, why do we do this kids can? I think the reason, is that we're always behind other countrie…

Schools know that they are primarily a babysitting service: it's easy to understand from the nature of the fuss that parents make when school is closed on a work day.

:) Since UK schools are considering experimenting with shorter/different summer holidays for the educational benefit, there was a parent on talk radio just this morning saying this was unfair because he may need to organise more babysitting.

Luckily, most parents are looking for good education.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#217

Post by pogden » Tue, Jul 02, 2013, 6:49 PM UTC

fr0sty wrote: post #126

jamesaguilar wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. In college, the kids who were home educated before just seem . . . off. And I say that as a slightly off person myself.

> In college, the kids who were home educated before just seem . . . off This particular bias is probably why the normal people in college who were home-schooled didn't volunteer that information to you.

It's also a result. Normal people don't volunteer that they were home-schooled, the strange ones do.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#218

Post by derleth » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 9:18 AM UTC

derleth wrote: post #151

ivix wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. It was kind of cute how the american terms were explained using more american terms.

Elsewhere it is posted when people begin school in the US. The rest is arithmetic.

> Elsewhere it is posted when people begin school in the US. The rest is arithmetic.

This is true, you know. Or are you saying only Americans can do arithmetic?

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#219

Post by SmokyBorbon » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 11:43 AM UTC

60 years ago boys had no problem paying attention in class. The problem is too many teachers today have degrees in education instead of the subject they are supposed to be teaching. They've turned schools into daycare centers. They rely on "projects", worksheets, videos, and busywork that have little to do with what the kids should be learning. When children are bored and resentful that their time is being wasted, they act out.

We can fix this by making it easier to fire bad teachers, require math, science, and English teachers to have degrees in math, science, and English, and prevent school funds from being used on new textbooks, televisions, videos, workbooks, or other wasteful materials.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#220

Post by ef4 » Wed, Jul 03, 2013, 2:09 PM UTC

Camillo wrote: post #206

ef4 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that thread is convincing. The one substantial comment makes assertions with very little evidence. Here's some evidence: Rockefeller's General Education Board wrote the following in 1906: "In our dreams...people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and re…

> Protestants of Northern European descent were horrified by all the "dirty", "drunken", Catholic Southern European and/or Irish immigrants who didn't share their culture. As a Southern European, I find that idea hilarious. Drunkenness is far more pervasive and culturally ingrained in Northern Europe and in America than in Southern Europe. If all you've ever known is America, you may find it hard to understand just h…

The northern Europeans who liked to drink stayed in Europe. It was the Taliban-level Puritan extremists who moved to America to start their own society.

Later waves of immigration were not so Puritan, but the upper classes were still very much associated with those sects well into the 20th century.

And yes, I don't think it's a coincidence that a society founded by Puritans has a binge drinking problem.