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Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

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Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#181

Post by greendestiny »

ef4 wrote: post #161
alxp wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On /r/askhistorians someone asked about this idea that universal education was brought about to raise a nation of docile factory workers. Here's the thread, the idea gets debunked pretty hard http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1hbezd/was_th...

I don't think that thread is convincing. The one substantial comment makes assertions with very little evidence. Here's some evidence: Rockefeller's General Education Board wrote the following in 1906: "In our dreams...people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and re…

I don't think that Rockefeller Education board quote supports your position. Education had previously only been necessary for the professions and callings listed - and its not like simply having more schools meant the economy was suddenly going to be composed of 100% professionals. They just want to give to the children what their parents want to give them but can't.

I suspect that factory owners and other bosses would have been scared of a new class of worker that could read and write. In fact I tend to think more education means less docile and easily manipulated people - then and now.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#182

Post by wavefunction »

coldtea wrote: post #144
sarchertech wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, historically mass education of the type we now employ is only about a century old, and designed to produce factory workers not to promote creativity. Learning to handle monotonous boredom and obey orders was of primary importance to a factory worker. Second, much of this is unprecedented. When my parents were children, they didn't attend Kindergarten, and first grade was a half day. When my parents younger sib…

> First, historically mass education of the type we now employ is only about a century old, and designed to produce factory workers not to promote creativity. Learning to handle monotonous boredom and obey orders was of primary importance to a factory worker. Actually it is the inverse. The higher classes (from rich upper class families to wealthy lawyers, doctors, scientists etc) were those that sat down and studied…

The upper classes were generally privately tutored until they were sent off to "college" afaik. I think college was the first taste of "mass education" that anyone had, and seems to primarily have been a means of certifying the emergent professional class whereas the tradesmen had his guild and standing within the guild to do the same.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#183

Post by bennyg »

coldtea wrote: post #144
sarchertech wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, historically mass education of the type we now employ is only about a century old, and designed to produce factory workers not to promote creativity. Learning to handle monotonous boredom and obey orders was of primary importance to a factory worker. Second, much of this is unprecedented. When my parents were children, they didn't attend Kindergarten, and first grade was a half day. When my parents younger sib…

> First, historically mass education of the type we now employ is only about a century old, and designed to produce factory workers not to promote creativity. Learning to handle monotonous boredom and obey orders was of primary importance to a factory worker. Actually it is the inverse. The higher classes (from rich upper class families to wealthy lawyers, doctors, scientists etc) were those that sat down and studied…

> that did and still get by with laxer schooling, less "boring stuff", and more "creativity".

Creativity is inherently good. It's literally what brought us from the plains fighting large animals to making monolithic structures that battle the elements. We can harness the power of the electron to post, critique and posture ideas in nanoseconds because of extremely creative people. The "boring" stuff matters just as much as the "non-boring" stuff. What kills me is that the STEM and liberal arts side of the education debate are arguing from extremes - and both sides sound like morons when it comes to creativity. Creativity is harnessed by two things: a wealth of experience and knowledge (ie learning Calculus is good, just like skipping rocks on the river), and treating idea generation like play and not like work. Obviously it's a little bit more nuanced than that, but that's the distillation and the point remains. The boring stuff matters. The non-boring stuff matters. Everything is relevant and we should be creating a culture of education that not only understands that, but actually does something about it.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#184

Post by vacri »

embolism wrote: post #156
vacri wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is a bit rich, given that you're basically saying you want it changed so its optimised for your needs.

I didn't say that anywhere. I believe it should be possible to design school experiences that can meet a wide variety of needs. If the other commenter needs a quiet environment where he/she can listen to a lecture, that should be available without forcing those for whom it is unsuited to be there too.

Sure you did, up there where you said "it's only disruptive...". That is saying you want school optimised for other people's needs (perhaps not yours, specifically). The tone of the comment ("industrial age") indicates that you think it's broken and needs to change.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#185

Post by PebblesRox »

kaitai wrote: post #117
tokenadult wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is an interesting comment, but none of it is responsive to the submitted article's concern about differences between boys and girls in school. I have actually lived in another country, and I am aware by direct observation that that country has BOTH higher academic achievement by school pupils than the United States and pervasive recess periods during the school day when young children get outdoors and exercise.…

I have to second this. For instance, everyone in education and policy circles these days is talking about Finnish education. Besides the fact that Finnish schools make sure every student eats enough and teachers have a lot of autonomy to shape lessons to student needs, students get something like 50 minutes of recess at lunch and less formal breaks every hour or so during the day. The school days are often shorter, t…

Your point at the end is so true. I was reading that list of examples and thinking "Why are they putting the emphasis on boys? Every single one of these looks like something I'd have enjoyed in school."

A good example of bored boy behavior vs. bored girl behavior: one time in a personal finance management class, we played BINGO with elbow macaroni as markers. (The questions were really simple so the game was neither fun nor educational.) Quite a few guys in the class took to stomping on their macaroni and finding other creative ways to crush it. I was busy getting them all to stand up as little arches and looking for interesting ways to arrange them. I was just as bored but less disruptive.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#186

Post by ameister14 »

I had a horrible middle school experience which led me to the opinion that primary and secondary school is a much better system.

It's not just punishing students for not sitting still, though a friend was almost flunking because he couldn't sit through a class. It's teachers eating separately from students, no time for recess, and no adult to talk to without social ostracism.

Then I went to a New England Prep school; 3 sports a year, teachers eat with and openly question students, everyone feels like members of the community and people have a stake in things, and the Headmaster knows everyone's name. I can't thank that school enough; I went from failing with almost perfect test scores to really good grades and a sense of belonging.

I don't understand why at least rural schools can't follow the same model. The teachers are paid less but get better results; the students are cared for and more disciplined, and the academics and athletics are generally better. It's not about the student body, either; we had tons of kids on scholarship that outperformed everyone.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#187

Post by PebblesRox »

VLM wrote: post #61
joonix wrote: post #40

Are there any private all-boys[1] schools that embrace this side of childhood? Look at tiger cubs and what not: they play, they bounce around, they fight, they figure out the world around them through investigation and exploration. I spent so much of my time outside as a kid, but I also spent a lot of time inside on the computer. Both were amazing worlds where your imagination could run wild; especially in the early…

"Look at tiger cubs" LOL I read that the first time as a Cub Scouts reference and agreed completely. You might be surprised just how much of your "thought experiment" vaguely resembles the many Cub Scout pack meetings I've attended, other than the pack meetings only being about 2 hours every other week rather than 8 hours every weekday. Like most organizations, the Scouts get many things right and a couple things wro…

I've heard good things about Adventure Scouts from people who did it growing up. It's co-ed and from what I've heard, they focus on outdoor exploration and survival skills. I wish I'd been able to do something like that as a kid. I'm definitely looking into it if I ever have kids of my own : )

Adventure Scouts: http://www.adventurescoutsusa.org/

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#188

Post by [deleted] »

sanarothe wrote: post #43
joelhooks wrote: post #12

At least one of my three boys would have an incredibly hard time with this. He's definitely "aspie" in a lot of respects. The decision to home educate our 4 children is hands down the best decision we've ever made. Highly recommend it, if you are able to pull it off logistically. Very rewarding experience so far.

I just want to say that you might want to consider public high school. There's a lot of social development going on there, even if most people come out of the entire system bitter.

[deleted]

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#189

Post by marcosdumay »

bitwize wrote: post #51
speeder wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

class participation and whatnot counted, and I had not a problem with that, when a teacher asked a direct question and I was not sleeping deeply enough (if I was half-sleeping and heard the question I woke up) I would usually be the first to reply. Only later I figured this was bad idea (here in Brazil at least, the norm is to noone ever try to reply to the teacher, as a kind of weird social convention, and since I a…

Feels for you, bro. I don't know if Brazilian education has improved since Feynman wrote this: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education I suspect not by much.

I was about to say that's not my experience at all. But then, it seems that the majoritarian experience of the the people that studied with me until our equivalent of high school was just like that... The difference is that I studied from the books, and just needed the teachers to ask questions (not during the class, of course).

At my undergrad things got slightly better. I guess the most advanced teachers got something from the lesson.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#190

Post by PebblesRox »

sanarothe wrote: post #43
joelhooks wrote: post #12

At least one of my three boys would have an incredibly hard time with this. He's definitely "aspie" in a lot of respects. The decision to home educate our 4 children is hands down the best decision we've ever made. Highly recommend it, if you are able to pull it off logistically. Very rewarding experience so far.

I just want to say that you might want to consider public high school. There's a lot of social development going on there, even if most people come out of the entire system bitter.

I think social confidence has a lot more to do with personality than it does with school experience. By all means consider public school, but don't think of it as a panacea for social problems, especially if your kids aren't on board with the idea. The benefits it provides are available elsewhere, without the bitter fruits of tedium and frustration.
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