Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School • Hacker News Board

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#71

Post by VLM » Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 5:55 PM UTC

GhotiFish wrote: post #29

kevingadd wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sitting still is not a virtue. It literally accomplishes nothing. It's a secondary detail - whether or not the kid is sitting still does not tell you whether they're actually paying attention to the lecture and whether they're going to remember it.

You're taking a narrow perspective. Fidgeting is distracting, to everyone else. Whatever your ideals of a perfect world may be, 20 dump trucks of kids needs to be educated at one facility every day. Whatever you may think one kid is doing to help him focus, that kid is disrupting the focus of his 8 neighbors. Something needs to change, but it's more than just perspectives.

"that kid is disrupting the focus of his 8 neighbors"

Whatever else Catholic churches may get wrong, apparently all of the "modern" ones I've ever been inside figured out the "crying room" technology a long time ago. Setting up a "sound diode" isn't all that difficult with modern technology. If whats really important is forcing future factory workers to line up in alphabetical order in row/column format, then flexibility might not work.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#72

Post by speeder » Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 5:55 PM UTC

freehunter wrote: post #49

speeder wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

class participation and whatnot counted, and I had not a problem with that, when a teacher asked a direct question and I was not sleeping deeply enough (if I was half-sleeping and heard the question I woke up) I would usually be the first to reply. Only later I figured this was bad idea (here in Brazil at least, the norm is to noone ever try to reply to the teacher, as a kind of weird social convention, and since I a…

In high school (in the early 2000s, in the US), class participation didn't mean just answering a question when called on, in my school most of the time it meant preemptively offering an answer without being called on. You got graded on having the initiative to answer without the teacher asking you directly.

If someone tried that here in Brazil everyone would get a zero.

Specially, because they link someone posted about Richard Feynman is still very true, most students here don't know jack shit beside what they memorized, the genius wannabes quickly get stomped when they say crap and others laugh at them.

Schools here are best teach you how to be conforming to social expectations... at best.

Also I like to point out that the reason I did not failed at tests, was not the school, it was that being curious as I am, most tests ended asking stuff I already had learned somewhere else (usually reading a book), I still have as hobby read random books, encyclopedias, science sites... And I had that hobby before wikipedia existed (in my bedroom there was 5 different enciclopedias, including one focused on history and ancient religion, and another on botany, zoology and chemistry, also I have all the books that my dad read during when he was getting his civil engineering degree)

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#73

Post by joelhooks » Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 5:56 PM UTC

tocomment wrote: post #19

joelhooks wrote: post #12

At least one of my three boys would have an incredibly hard time with this. He's definitely "aspie" in a lot of respects. The decision to home educate our 4 children is hands down the best decision we've ever made. Highly recommend it, if you are able to pull it off logistically. Very rewarding experience so far.

Any tips on getting started? It sounds interesting but I wouldn't know where to start.

We have a great homeschool group that provides a lot of high quality social time combined with sports and other activities. We also participate in a co-op that is a lot of fun and provides some variety. The oldest is in a leadership program that has benefited him greatly.

We are very loose curriculum wise and follow a self-education approach[1] loosely. The Robinson Curriculum is awesome, and I highly recommend it.

[1] http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#74

Post by gknoy » Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 5:58 PM UTC

pekk wrote: post #37

tokenadult wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal goal is to figure out how to make enough money to keep my children out of the insanity of public schools. It doesn't necessarily take a lot of money to homeschool children. (Been there, still doing that.) It does take agreement among the parents about what lifestyle adjustments each parent is willing to make so that children have flexibility in their learning. My oldest son, now a programmer working for a…

I find it peculiar that you regularly cite scientific studies of this and that, and yet you are using this terribly misleading, n-of-1 implication that home schooling is why your oldest son has the success he has. Do you really think that children cannot do exactly the same thing coming out of a public school, and if so, why?

I believe he said that his _son_ felt that home-schooling had the positive effect on his job.

I'm sure that people can do the same thing coming out of public school, but I think we can agree that many people coming out of public school (especially nerdy ones) do NOT feel empowered, or like leaders. Everyone's experiences are different, but I know that my self-esteem in high school was terrible, and didn't pick up until I was in college.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#75

Post by cafard » Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 5:59 PM UTC

sarchertech wrote: post #45

pekk wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically many, many children have sat still at school and behaved themselves. That doesn't mean that others should be stigmatized, but it's not like this is impossible and unprecedented.

First, historically mass education of the type we now employ is only about a century old, and designed to produce factory workers not to promote creativity. Learning to handle monotonous boredom and obey orders was of primary importance to a factory worker. Second, much of this is unprecedented. When my parents were children, they didn't attend Kindergarten, and first grade was a half day. When my parents younger sib…

"First, historically mass education of the type we now employ is only about a century old, and designed to produce factory workers..."

Or else until about 100 years ago there was no economic benefit to educating the great mass of humanity, and industrialization created a type of work for which literacy and numeracy helped.

"Learning to handle monotonous boredom and obey orders was of primary importance to a factory worker."

The education of the children--sons, mostly--of the well off always involved a lot of monotonous boredom. Orders were enforced with a stick.

But indeed kindergarten was a half day in my day. The extension of schooling to younger ages is at least partly a result of the need for day care, with more and more mothers in the work force.

"Teachers know this doesn't work, but schools are obsessed with testing and metrics to the determinant of real education."

Quite so.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#76

Post by tokenadult » Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 6:01 PM UTC

sarchertech wrote: post #23

School is half education and half babysitting. The problem is that schools aren't aware of that, and they try to cram too much learning/work into a day at school. Kids just don't have the attention span. College isn't taught this way. Colleges realize that even young adults can't handle 40 hours a week of continual instruction, why do we do this kids can? I think the reason, is that we're always behind other countrie…

Yours is an interesting comment, but none of it is responsive to the submitted article's concern about differences between boys and girls in school. I have actually lived in another country, and I am aware by direct observation that that country has BOTH higher academic achievement by school pupils than the United States and pervasive recess periods during the school day when young children get outdoors and exercise. I think that United States school officials need to stop believing legends about what goes on in other countries and actually

a) OBSERVE what the school day looks like in other countries,

http://www.amazon.com/Smart-Schools-David-Perkins/dp/0028740...

b) analyze textbooks and teaching practices that produce superior results

http://www.amazon.com/Knowing-Teaching-Elementary-Mathematic...

c) take careful note of classroom practices that respect learners and help learners learn deeply and not just superficially,

http://timssvideo.com/timss-video-study

and

d) systematically train teachers in effective teaching techniques.

http://teachlikeachampion.com/

Boys and girls, all over the world, are exposed to many different kinds of school schedules and school practices, and it is the basic procedure of educational science to carefully observe the different combinations of home, societal, and school influences on children and try to figure out what helps learners have the best results.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#77

Post by samatman » Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 6:08 PM UTC

derleth wrote: post #64

pessimizer wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also historically, many, many children have been thrown out of school or deemed ineducable because they couldn't sit still in school and behave themselves.

Or they never went to school in the first place. Similarly, the average high schooler was better back then because the average person stopped their education at the eighth grade, if not sooner. (Note to non-Americans: In the US, high school runs from ninth to twelfth grade, usually named freshman, sophomore, junior, and senior years.)

More to the point, the children/teenagers in question range from 13 to 18 years of age. I gather that "12th grade" is meaningless in much of the world.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#78

Post by speeder » Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 6:08 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #51

speeder wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

class participation and whatnot counted, and I had not a problem with that, when a teacher asked a direct question and I was not sleeping deeply enough (if I was half-sleeping and heard the question I woke up) I would usually be the first to reply. Only later I figured this was bad idea (here in Brazil at least, the norm is to noone ever try to reply to the teacher, as a kind of weird social convention, and since I a…

Feels for you, bro. I don't know if Brazilian education has improved since Feynman wrote this: http://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education I suspect not by much.

Regarding the "test" mentioned there and it being self-perpetuating.

Brazil during the cold war, caught the propaganda of sorts that anyone to have success needed to have a degree, the country needed to go from almost none degrees to everyone have degrees.

The result was a severe lack of universities, so the government started to build them like if there was no tomorrow (and they are STILL not enough for the demand), and made into law a thing called "vestibular" that is a entry test that you take to join university.

The test subject is whatever the government ministry of education decided that schools must have as curriculum, thus the test asks questions regarding everything you learn in school from 3 to 18 years old of your life, and since it tests for everything and is applied to ANY course, the government mandatory curriculum has anything a university student might need, thus we have a curriculum that is so ridiculously big, that is impossible to teach it entirely.

Because here getting the students of your school into a federal university (here they are almost on US ivy league level) or to certain state universities (those have several courses listed alongside ivy league and Oxford on best courses list) is highly prestigious, and the only way to get in is passing the stupid test, the high schools developed a system that they teach you how to pass the test, literally, your final tests on the schools many times are directly copied from previous years vestibular tests, and students on those schools know how to pass the test, and only that.

Since here in Brazil university-level education is mandatory to be a teacher, only those that passed the tests, and teach new people how to pass the tests, making things worse.

Also, here in Brazil homeschooling is a crime (yes, they ARREST you for attempting to homeschool your kids), and joining university without a normal schooling is not allowed, you can be sure 99% of university students passed by this system (the other 1% are dropouts that later did a high school conclusion test sponsored by the government).

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#79

Post by derleth » Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 6:09 PM UTC

DamnYuppie wrote: post #60

I am surprised to see that none of the comments really comment or reflect upon the issue this article brings up, which is that for boys to thrive they need to be taught differently. If we can actually create ciriculum that allows them to excel why would we not do this? I know that the main point against it would be that young girls perhaps would not thrive in such a system. Yet I think we have to find a balance betwe…

'Separate but equal' is never actually equal.

Re: Stop Penalizing Boys for Not Being Able to Sit Still at School

#80

Post by lifeisstillgood » Mon, Jul 01, 2013, 6:09 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #76

sarchertech wrote: post #23

School is half education and half babysitting. The problem is that schools aren't aware of that, and they try to cram too much learning/work into a day at school. Kids just don't have the attention span. College isn't taught this way. Colleges realize that even young adults can't handle 40 hours a week of continual instruction, why do we do this kids can? I think the reason, is that we're always behind other countrie…

Yours is an interesting comment, but none of it is responsive to the submitted article's concern about differences between boys and girls in school. I have actually lived in another country, and I am aware by direct observation that that country has BOTH higher academic achievement by school pupils than the United States and pervasive recess periods during the school day when young children get outdoors and exercise.…

Both of these comments - just changed my view of how I should teach my child and what their school should be like.

wow. Epiphany