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No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

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Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#121

Post by Volpe »

samstave wrote: post #98
justin66 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When people will realize that the problem is always in the governments themselves as a concept, not in any particular issues? It's totally okay to be an atheist today, but we need just one extra little step to be anarchists and it's so, so, so complicated. While belief in a magical all-powerful and caring government is no different than a belief in deity. People "believe in" government not because they love it or t…

> People "believe in" government not because they love it or think it is perfect, they do it because they believe the alternative is something like the Hobbsian state of nature. Utter BS. People "believe" in governments largely because they are indoctrinated into the belief system prepared for them based on what country they are born into. Then, based on the actions of that government, their upbringing and life exper…

Why do you "believe" in rights?

They are literally constructed by us, indoctrinated even.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#122

Post by pgeorgi »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #43
wazoox wrote: post #6

Frankly, I can't see a single good reason for this trade agreement, and a lot of good reasons against, starting with that I (and all other Europeans) don't want GM food, hormone beef and chlorinated chicken in my plate any day soon.

Trade openness is one of the strongest predictor of peace [1] (also see: Better Angels of our Nature [2]). Free trade would also be an economic boon to Europe and the U.S. A study by the Bertelsmann Foundation together with the Munich-based Center for Economic Studies found that "if the United States and the European Union are able to come together on a far-reaching free trade agreement, Germany would be one of the g…

Who's that "Germany" Bertelsmann is talking about. The government? The people? Maybe just Bertelsmann and their buddies?

Those 181k new jobs: Will they be propped up with social welfare like many of those "newly generated jobs" in Germany of the last years (Hartz-4 Aufstocker)?

Which part of the work force benefits from the 4.68% income spike - those in the millions-of-euros range (who can easily pull up the medium income because they're so remote from the median)? Or those earning 370€/month (and then will receive a fabulous 387€, leading to no more money in the wallet since most of it came from social welfare anyway)?

If you want to make a point, please don't try to prove it with Bertelsmann "research", most of that is 100% politics.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#123

Post by Locke1689 »

akiselev wrote: post #81
csense wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it's true that religion generally had a lot more influence over politics and policy in the past (the recent past moreso than the present, and the distant past moreso than the recent past, at least in the USA), saying that "once upon a time, religion and government were one and the same" ranges between, at best, a gross oversimplification of complex sociopolitical circumstances, and at worst, a factually incorre…

One of the primary claims to power in medieval Europe was the divine decree, something that was usually "approved" by the Roman Catholic Church, so yes religion has had an absolutely insane amount of influence on politics, so much so that you can easily argue that it was responsible for predominance of monarchies and dictatorships until the enlightenment (and even then it took centuries). Entire governments have rise…

No, most claims to power were correlated with the divine decree. You have yet to prove that there was any causation.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#124

Post by Locke1689 »

pgeorgi wrote: post #122
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trade openness is one of the strongest predictor of peace [1] (also see: Better Angels of our Nature [2]). Free trade would also be an economic boon to Europe and the U.S. A study by the Bertelsmann Foundation together with the Munich-based Center for Economic Studies found that "if the United States and the European Union are able to come together on a far-reaching free trade agreement, Germany would be one of the g…

Who's that "Germany" Bertelsmann is talking about. The government? The people? Maybe just Bertelsmann and their buddies? Those 181k new jobs: Will they be propped up with social welfare like many of those "newly generated jobs" in Germany of the last years (Hartz-4 Aufstocker)? Which part of the work force benefits from the 4.68% income spike - those in the millions-of-euros range (who can easily pull up the medium i…

Stop asking questions and just read the studies. If you have evidence just state it.

Argument by aggressive questioning is not an effective convincer.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#125

Post by atirip »

oleganza wrote: post #7

Actual translation: because of the behavior of U.S. government, E.U. government(s) will make it hard for E.U. citizens to trade with U.S. citizens. So normal people get spied on and bullied by one government, then because of that their life is made even more complicated by some other government. Great outcome! When people will realize that the problem is always in the governments themselves as a concept, not in any p…

"because of the behavior of U.S. government, E.U. government(s) will make it hard for E.U. citizens to trade with U.S. citizens." Yes, thats correct - you should not trade with enemies, with somebody who is in war with you. US citizens have elected their government who had declared EU to be US enemy.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#126

Post by oleganza »

atirip wrote: post #125
oleganza wrote: post #7

Actual translation: because of the behavior of U.S. government, E.U. government(s) will make it hard for E.U. citizens to trade with U.S. citizens. So normal people get spied on and bullied by one government, then because of that their life is made even more complicated by some other government. Great outcome! When people will realize that the problem is always in the governments themselves as a concept, not in any p…

"because of the behavior of U.S. government, E.U. government(s) will make it hard for E.U. citizens to trade with U.S. citizens." Yes, thats correct - you should not trade with enemies, with somebody who is in war with you. US citizens have elected their government who had declared EU to be US enemy.

U.S. citizens did not freely elect that military machine and millions of suits around it. They only could vote for a person to extract taxes. All citizens are victims of their ruling mafia.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#127

Post by oleganza »

Volpe wrote: post #121
samstave wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People "believe in" government not because they love it or think it is perfect, they do it because they believe the alternative is something like the Hobbsian state of nature. Utter BS. People "believe" in governments largely because they are indoctrinated into the belief system prepared for them based on what country they are born into. Then, based on the actions of that government, their upbringing and life exper…

Why do you "believe" in rights? They are literally constructed by us, indoctrinated even.

Rights are fantasy. 95% of your life is anarchy: voluntary relationships with others based on like/dislike, mutual respect and agreements. It's not based on rights, laws or other abstractions.

Rights do not exist. Individual agreements do.

Here is a proof:

I respect any belief of rights. Your belief may be different from mine. If you peacefully respect my disagreement the same way I respect yours, then "rights" are meaningless in resolving conflicts. If we have the same idea of rights, they are irrelevant. If you force me to accept your vision of rights, you only prove that rights do not help: you abandon reason and take out the gun. There are no rights, only peace or violence. QED.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#128

Post by Volpe »

oleganza wrote: post #127
Volpe wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you "believe" in rights? They are literally constructed by us, indoctrinated even.

Rights are fantasy. 95% of your life is anarchy: voluntary relationships with others based on like/dislike, mutual respect and agreements. It's not based on rights, laws or other abstractions. Rights do not exist. Individual agreements do. Here is a proof: I respect any belief of rights. Your belief may be different from mine. If you peacefully respect my disagreement the same way I respect yours, then "rights" are m…

Actually it is. Because everyone (the majority at least) believe in rights.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#129

Post by oleganza »

Volpe wrote: post #128
oleganza wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rights are fantasy. 95% of your life is anarchy: voluntary relationships with others based on like/dislike, mutual respect and agreements. It's not based on rights, laws or other abstractions. Rights do not exist. Individual agreements do. Here is a proof: I respect any belief of rights. Your belief may be different from mine. If you peacefully respect my disagreement the same way I respect yours, then "rights" are m…

Actually it is. Because everyone (the majority at least) believe in rights.

If everyone believes in different rights, what's the point?

Anyway, what's the purpose of rights? Is it to give a sanction for violence to yourself when you think you deserve it? If you are not using violence, but do a conversation, then it is only reason that you use, not particular rights.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#130

Post by njr123 »

oleganza wrote: post #7

Actual translation: because of the behavior of U.S. government, E.U. government(s) will make it hard for E.U. citizens to trade with U.S. citizens. So normal people get spied on and bullied by one government, then because of that their life is made even more complicated by some other government. Great outcome! When people will realize that the problem is always in the governments themselves as a concept, not in any p…

> When people will realize that the problem is always in the governments themselves as a concept, not in any particular issues?

Maybe because most people can see, that while governments are not perfect, they are a net benefit?

I pay some sum of money into a pot, and in return someone comes and takes away my rubbish every week, and gets rid of it some correct way that I don't have to worry about (and that is incidentally also not the cheapest way). When I go to the shop to buy milk, I don't have to worry that its been watered down, or that its not really the same brand as on the label, because some authority has taken care of that for me already. There must be dozens of more examples of things that are beneficial for everyone, and are just never ever going to get accomplished any other way, apart from some central authority using money from a common fund.

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