Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

translate.google.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 152 posts

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#81

Post by akiselev »

csense wrote: post #75
waps wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course what people don't really understand is that religion today is government of yesterday (give or take a millenium ... well probably give). Some religions, one in particular, still sees it that way.

While it's true that religion generally had a lot more influence over politics and policy in the past (the recent past moreso than the present, and the distant past moreso than the recent past, at least in the USA), saying that "once upon a time, religion and government were one and the same" ranges between, at best, a gross oversimplification of complex sociopolitical circumstances, and at worst, a factually incorre…

One of the primary claims to power in medieval Europe was the divine decree, something that was usually "approved" by the Roman Catholic Church, so yes religion has had an absolutely insane amount of influence on politics, so much so that you can easily argue that it was responsible for predominance of monarchies and dictatorships until the enlightenment (and even then it took centuries).

Entire governments have risen and fallen on top of the backs of religions and their schisms and reformations.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#82

Post by tokipin »

dmix wrote: post #72
justin66 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When people will realize that the problem is always in the governments themselves as a concept, not in any particular issues? It's totally okay to be an atheist today, but we need just one extra little step to be anarchists and it's so, so, so complicated. While belief in a magical all-powerful and caring government is no different than a belief in deity. People "believe in" government not because they love it or t…

That reminded me of a famous libertarian quote: "If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action." - Mises If humans are full of logical fallacies and poor decision making, just making a collection of humans and giving them unlimited power does not make the logical fallacies and poor decision making go away. It c…

i don't think it plays out like this in practice, for the reason that a government has to at least pretend it's for the people and there's at least some measure of accountability.

the alternative is very, very different and I think libertarians really underestimate how evil and creative and corrupt people can be. there is a reason we have various regulations regarding child labor, for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labor#Early_1900s

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#83

Post by rektide »

dmix wrote: post #72
justin66 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When people will realize that the problem is always in the governments themselves as a concept, not in any particular issues? It's totally okay to be an atheist today, but we need just one extra little step to be anarchists and it's so, so, so complicated. While belief in a magical all-powerful and caring government is no different than a belief in deity. People "believe in" government not because they love it or t…

That reminded me of a famous libertarian quote: "If one rejects laissez faire on account of man's fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action." - Mises If humans are full of logical fallacies and poor decision making, just making a collection of humans and giving them unlimited power does not make the logical fallacies and poor decision making go away. It c…

Civics class never taught me about "unlimited power," so I'm having a little bit of difficulty getting spun up with the premise.

The conclusion though doesn't share my outlook. The actual activities are not interesting to me. What is interesting to me is insuring ongoing changing activity and new things being tried. Libertarianism fails as badly as most government fails in this regard, permitting the accrual of power by corporate bodies with, like government, interest vested chiefly in their own self propogation.

The role that is unspoken, not what government is, but what I want it to be: to insure no one keeps others from trying actions to better themselves. It's not about actions, about information in acting, it's about being empowered to be able to act, to try things. I see this as a macroscopic look, whereas I see your concerns with decision making, the libertarian/government question, as microscopic, focused on only one particular thing at a time.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#84

Post by bjourne »

pvnick wrote: post #70
threeseed wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give us all a break. It's so easy to make that choice when you and your family aren't literally starving to death.

Why is this simple piece of logic so difficult for anti-GMO extremists to understand? These technologies literally have the potential, without even being hyperbolic, to save Billions of lives. And these clowns are worried about the providers making an extra buck.

There arent billions of starving people around. Those who do starve, do so not because of a lack of food, but because those who have excess of it would rather destroy it than sell it below market price. GMO wont do jack against an artificial constructed scarcity.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#85

Post by rektide »

csense wrote: post #75
waps wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course what people don't really understand is that religion today is government of yesterday (give or take a millenium ... well probably give). Some religions, one in particular, still sees it that way.

While it's true that religion generally had a lot more influence over politics and policy in the past (the recent past moreso than the present, and the distant past moreso than the recent past, at least in the USA), saying that "once upon a time, religion and government were one and the same" ranges between, at best, a gross oversimplification of complex sociopolitical circumstances, and at worst, a factually incorre…

If you have more than 100 hours of Crusader Kings 2, you know historical reality better than most history majors. Sure one may know history, but do you know the principles of interconnectedness that drove history onwards?

There's nothing like sitting down with a wide set of empirical data for being able to deeply get the genuine causalities. Anything else just doesn't cut it, which is why virtual simulation and general modeling- Engelbart's dream- still speaks such promise to so many techies.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#86

Post by csense »

Why should the US sign free trade agreements?

The US was screwed by signing NAFTA (the North American Free Trade Agreement between Canada, the USA and Mexico beginning in 1994).

A bit of history: From c. 1950-1980, unions had a monopoly on labor supply in many industries. This allowed them to charge monopoly pricing, so employees gained a greater share of the wealth generated by their businesses.

With the opening of US borders to foreign trade (NAFTA was a part of this trend, but I mark its beginning with President Nixon's visit to China), elimination of most tariffs, and lower worldwide shipping costs due to improved logistics and technology, manufacturing became fungible between countries. So manufacturers largely relocated to other countries like China or Mexico with lower wages and laxer regulations.

I grew up in a manufacturing-heavy area that was economically devastated by these changes, and only now, decades later, is starting to recover. So I was exposed to the anti-free-trade position quite a bit, and I'm familiar with all its arguments; they sound convincing. And free trade's results look awfully poor.

So can anyone explain to me the incentives of free trade agreements from the US's point of view? Or if there aren't any, the political or strategic reasons they've gotten signed regardless of their drawbacks?

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#87

Post by [deleted] »

csense wrote: post #86

Why should the US sign free trade agreements? The US was screwed by signing NAFTA (the North American Free Trade Agreement between Canada, the USA and Mexico beginning in 1994). A bit of history: From c. 1950-1980, unions had a monopoly on labor supply in many industries. This allowed them to charge monopoly pricing, so employees gained a greater share of the wealth generated by their businesses. With the opening of…

[deleted]

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#88

Post by ihsw »

csense wrote: post #86

Why should the US sign free trade agreements? The US was screwed by signing NAFTA (the North American Free Trade Agreement between Canada, the USA and Mexico beginning in 1994). A bit of history: From c. 1950-1980, unions had a monopoly on labor supply in many industries. This allowed them to charge monopoly pricing, so employees gained a greater share of the wealth generated by their businesses. With the opening of…

If there is sufficient economic competition then free-trade agreements have limited economic impact, however the non-economic benefits are numerous. I'm not going to debate the legitimacy of 'monopoly pricing' and unions because that debate will degenerate quickly.

In addition to elimination of tariffs, import quotas, and preferential sourcing of goods and services, FTAs enforce/encourage open-border policies that enable the free movement of people between different jurisdictions. FTAs are a step towards greater integration with other nations.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#89

Post by coopdog »

How can two companies negotiate when one knows every detail of the other, but not vice versa. One will always take everything 'left on the table' from the negotiation, and the other will just scrape along until a bump in the road, where they'll have no fat left to survive and will go bankrupt.

The US needs to show that there are proper checks and balances on their information collection, that the data only leaves company servers when a judge signs off that there's reasonable suspicion of a crime, and that anyone subpoenaed gets automatically notified after some reasonable period of time.

Re: No free trade agreement if charges of espionage are true, warns EU Commissioner

#90

Post by pradocchia »

bogger wrote: post #22
kintamanimatt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with any of those things? None of those things are harmful.

Expecting downvotes for this: I strongly suspect that hormones in meat make Americans bigger. I am from Europe. I have met many Americans both of whose parents were born in my country. They don't look like us. My perception is that on average they are significantly bigger, and are both taller and broader than is normal in my country. I don't know if this has health implications, but I would rather not eat meat which…

Hormones and antibiotics, perhaps. Chinese raised in America do not look the same as Chinese raised in China. They tend to be bigger, thicker, taller, and with a different skin tone. Go figure.
Post reply on HN