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Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

samharris.org

111–120 of 278 posts

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#111
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you have never had a cup of coffee or tea? I'm not aware of any adult I personally know who hasn't partaken of some substance that alters perception in some way. Though no doubt such individuals exist, such a state of absolute abstinence is not something I'd think of imposing on my children. Take into account the actual effects and remove social stigma and legal ramifications, and the substances I'd be ok with for…

> So you have never had a cup of coffee or tea? No, actually. Both smell gross to me; I don't plan on trying either. ... but I do like Monsters. I see what your point is, but the paragraph I am referring to in the article specifically mentions marijuana. He uses the more conventional use of the word "drug" in that paragraph, and so I am simply continuing that usage than the more general form he was using in the rest…

He uses the more conventional use of the word "drug" in that paragraph

Uhm, he specifically mentions tea, coffee and alcohol, right in the third phrase of that paragraph.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#112

> "Some are illegal; some are stigmatized; some are dangerous—though, perversely, these sets only partially intersect" I'd say stigmatization and legalization tend to correlate well, but sadly neither law nor cultural attitude have much to do with actual danger. http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_caus... LSD remains a Schedule 1 drug, even though it's about as dangerous as caffeine. > "...if I kn…

Exactly. The only thing that bothers me about stigmatization and legalization is the 40+ year old crowd that feel marijuana should not be legal.

I wouldn't blame it all on middle-aged folks. In my experience, plenty of young people think that all hell would break loose if drugs were legalized or decriminalized.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#113
Personally, I feel more gratified after working hard and increasing my ability/achievements than doing drugs.. Perhaps I haven't done the right drugs (though I've done my fair share)? I've never had something happens where the world suddenly made sense, nor have I felt some spiritual connection with the cosmos or my soul. I feel that the one true way to understand myself and the world is to live in it unaltered.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#114
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

worst analogy ever, especially for a post that so thinly veils your misguided feelings of superiority. ferraris were meant to be tweaked, what do you think the entire field of motorsport exists for? from F1 all the way down to the local DE event at the local track, cars are tweaked endlessly, with passion. you won't find any shortage of tweaked exotics at your local autocross, either. if nobody "twaeked" cars, you wo…

You don't have much of a sense of humor, do you.

Are you sure he's not making a joke as well?

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#115
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've had a beer, or a cup of coffee, you've tried mind altering drugs. That was part of the point of the article.

While true, it's quite a stretch to equate powerful hallucinogens with coffee (alcohol is another matter). I mean, man, LSD is no joke, that will take you places that an ocean of coffee won't help you reach. Of course, ideally we don't reach for anything.

Equate? Sure, they aren't equal. For instance I'd much rather be a passenger in a car with a driver who's had a regular, cup of coffee-sized dose of caffeine than with someone that's even had a little bit of LSD.

OTOH LSD seems to be non- or low- addictive but coffee will get you hooked and give you withdrawals.

They're all mind altering drugs. Each thing is different. Some find value in them that others don't.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#116
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you have never had a cup of coffee or tea? I'm not aware of any adult I personally know who hasn't partaken of some substance that alters perception in some way. Though no doubt such individuals exist, such a state of absolute abstinence is not something I'd think of imposing on my children. Take into account the actual effects and remove social stigma and legal ramifications, and the substances I'd be ok with for…

> So you have never had a cup of coffee or tea? No, actually. Both smell gross to me; I don't plan on trying either. ... but I do like Monsters. I see what your point is, but the paragraph I am referring to in the article specifically mentions marijuana. He uses the more conventional use of the word "drug" in that paragraph, and so I am simply continuing that usage than the more general form he was using in the rest…

I don't feel these semantic distinctions are as distinct as all that. And they're not the same for everyone. I had a coworker who reported distinct euphoria from over-the-counter Motrin.

So, semantics aside... I have two daughters myself. Personally I'm fine with them using mood/perception altering substances in a responsible manner. Or not, according to their druthers.

The thing is, some substances have effects that go beyond the timeframe of any possible pharmacological effect. To have the experience of seeing things "fresh" as if through the eyes of a child is to know, experientially, that such a thing is possible as an adult. Truly knowing it's possible, one might occasionally make the effort to just look and experience, with fewer filters than is typical. This is a real and beneficial ability. Drugs are not the only way to get there, but they are one way.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#117
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> its fierce fight with illusions, hallucinations and misleading spiritual experiences Only for competitive reasons. To get a stable foothold, Christianity had to either do away with the rampant spiritualism of the largely shamanistic religions it replaced, or in some cases had to embrace and extend them. This is and was a purely strategic consideration. > It poses a real problem to (his) atheism, and he, obviously,…

Notice that I said the first millenium, not the first century. By the 5th century, Christianity had a stable foothold. By ontological support I mean a substance. The mind is still an undefined substance. Is it the brain or is the soul? If you state it is the brain, as I take it to be the default naturalistic/atheist option, than the problem is still not solved. So it's still a problem, something that needs explanatio…

You're creating a false dichotomy to try to force your beliefs into the argument.

The idea of a soul is supernatural so the default naturalist/atheist position is to give it no more thought than unicorns or leprechauns (although this is not universally true; some believe in something analogous to a soul, but with far more complex reasoning than "God did it") in a meaningful debate. Instead the atheist/naturalist world view looks for other natural causes for consciousness and very easily finds them: the depth and breadth of complex phenomena emerging from smaller cells (chemical, biological, and informational) is astounding, so much so that we haven't even begin to scratch the surface of the neuroscience, let alone the complex phenomena that emerge from societies and an interconnected global civilization.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comparisons are all extremely unfair in the same way: they involve unjust disregard for the well-being of others. There are victims in each of your analogies. There are no victims if I safely use a mind-altering drug like LSD. Responsible drug use has more in common with using a neat programming trick to accomplish a personal goal than it does with hacking. Still, I come across this comparison often: like people…

His analogies are apt. His point is that in all those cases the signal itself is meaningless and inconsequential to the end. The victim, in his examples, is the achievement of the end goal, which becomes a casualty of focusing only on the signal. It probably applies to stimulant drugs more than it does to drugs like LSD. But like the original essay suggests, there's probably an evolutionary reason why we don't consta…

Evolutionary reasons keep us surviving at any cost - in this discussion the cost is the sacrifice of appreciation of the beauty of everything, etc. Indeed you might die to predators more if you were distracted by how pretty that tree trunk is, but that reasoning no longer applies since we are not part of the food chain. You seem to be using what evolution "settled on" as support for your argument - that is a very wrong thing to do.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#119

I recommend David Nutt's Drugs Without the Hot Air [1] on the subject. Nutt, a British psychiatrist and neuropsychopharmacologist, headed up the U.K.'s Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs (a British DEA/FDA hybrid). He was canned when he suggested that alcohol may be more damaging than many controlled substances. Amongst the goodies from the book are this chart [2], which plots dependence risk against toxicologis…

>which means that there was effectively no relationship at all. This is in large part because Nutt's research is entirely fraudulent. C.f. my previous analysis here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4044431

"The full methodology isn't actually published anywhere."

I believe it is: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-67.... Is a panel of experts providing views on an objective criteria the most satisfying solution? No. But they are open about the method, the scoring system, and data used to set assumptions. Plus, it beats "experts" legislating based on subjective, opaque critera.

"The rankings are creating by combining a lot of different factors that don't have anything to do with each other, e.g. by combining harm to the user with harm to society"

Nutt et all advocate considering the harm done to society by drugs, versus individuals, since it is at the society-wide level that we regulate. In any case, the data are provided to allow for one to pry apart the local and global harms. Here is a chart allowing you to, visually, do just that: http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_caus....

"The harms for drugs are measured as they are typically used, rather than correcting for things like differences in demographic and route of administration."

In his book, he spends a good deal of time addressing routes of administration, pointing out that "the health impacts of a drug can vary enormously depending on how it’s consumed". He is similarly expansive on the role of "setting" and culture in vulnerability and harm potential.

"The harms of the drugs caused by prohibition are not accounted for."

I thought he went quite extensively into the War on Drugs and how it wasn't "obviously the wrong thing to try in the 1970s, but today it is clearly doing more harm than good", that the "'drugs problem' needs radical rethinking as a public-health crisis rather than a moral crusade." He also uses the example of Portugal to show how legalisation can reduce indirect drug harms.

"They're not accounting for the benefits of drug use, only the harms."

Nutt is presently at the forefront of the British effort to de-regulate drugs. Further, harm reduction should first focus on clarifying risks.

Re: Drugs and the Meaning of Life (2011)

#120
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it's true it really doesn't mean anything. DMT was the most intense psychedelic experience I've ever had, but came away with zero insights or spiritual change (unlike as from the usual suspects).

It effects everybody differently.I highly suggest Rick Strassman's book 'DMT the spirit molecule'. It shows how different and similar they are

I'd highly recommend not reading such nonsense that has no scientific backing. That book is just the author making up explanations, with no evidence. It doesn't "show" anything, at least not more than any other user making up stuff about their favourite drug.
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