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Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

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Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#171

Post by tripzilch »

crusso wrote: post #127
sounds wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for that. Can I just say, I wouldn't say the Enlightenment Ideal is all but gone. It's not even near death. We, the people, chose leaders and were betrayed. That doesn't just apply to the US, but I'll start there. I believe the people were half-awake...but not completely unaware of who they were electing or what they would lose. The idealist's battle against tyranny on one side and anarchy on the other is s…

We, the people, chose leaders and were betrayed No, we chose leaders who would give us freebies and security vs leaders who would protect our freedoms. The fact that we have twice elected a President who talks of "fair share" and we don't recognize that language for the trap that it is tells you exactly why we are in this situation today.

> The fact that we have twice elected a President who (...)

The fact that your alternative to re-electing that guy would've been somebody equivalently bad, tells me that there wasn't a lot of choice involved in the first place.

Your betrayal started already before that, with the corruption of choice.

The Simpsons laid it out pretty clearly already some decades ago, and instead it seems to have only gotten worse--from "the lesser of two evils" to "the equivalent of two evils" ...

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#172

Post by honzzz »

mikeg8 wrote: post #167
honzzz wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. When I was younger I kind of admired Americans and their ideals and I automatically perceived them as the 'good guys'. I did not want to get American citizenship or anything but I had spent couple of months in the US, I loved it and Americans were my friends - I used to defend them every time someone was critical about the US. Now I would not even want to visit again. TSA alone would be enough for it not to…

American Citizens and the US government are not the same thing. While we call ourselves a democracy, the elected officials and legislation they create don't always align with the values of the citizens. It's become a complicated mess but please don't use "America" as a synonym for the US government and their actions. We are all just as upset and betrayed, if not more, than you.

Of course, I still have personal friends who are US citizens and I still think highly of them. I think it's obvious what I meant. And rest assured that I am very aware of the fact that government does not always represent people well - I grew up in a totalitarian regime. But it's also true that they act in your name (especially because you did elect them in democratic elections) and when they do horrible things overseas people might believe that you 'let them', that you did not do enough to stop them... I hope you understand what I mean.

EDIT: I still believe that Americans - the people - have freedom and courage in their blood and some of them will think of something smart and innovative to change the course.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#173

Post by corford »

UVB-76 wrote: post #39

I was going to write a comment to this effect on one of the many threads related to this subject, but figured it would fall on deaf ears. Americans should not underestimate the damage this scandal has done to the American 'brand'. Growing up, I was the Americophile of my friends. I loved American culture, I aspired to live the American dream, I fully intended to pursue American citizenship later in life. This is only…

Sadly, I share similar feelings.

I last visited the States in 2007 for a friend's wedding and had all 10 of my fingers scanned at immigration when I arrived. I found the whole experience hugely irritating and wanted to say: "My own country doesn't even have my prints on file and you're taking all 10 fingers and treating me like a fucking suspect when all I'm here to do is spend some tourist dollars and celebrate my best friend marrying one of your citizens?".

It really pissed me off and I had the feeling then that I'd not readily be coming back to the land of the free any time soon. The Snowden revelations have simply sealed it for me. As things stand now, I have zero interest in ever setting foot in the US again.

Which is tragic because the American people themselves are generally lovely. We had a great trip in 2007 and my best friend's wife (who now lives with him and their 4 yr old son in the UK) is one of the most smart, fun and kind people I know.

I want to love you America but damn you're not making it easy at the moment!

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#174

Post by tripzilch »

Roritharr wrote: post #49
UVB-76 wrote: post #39

I was going to write a comment to this effect on one of the many threads related to this subject, but figured it would fall on deaf ears. Americans should not underestimate the damage this scandal has done to the American 'brand'. Growing up, I was the Americophile of my friends. I loved American culture, I aspired to live the American dream, I fully intended to pursue American citizenship later in life. This is only…

Without wanting to sound alarmist, but I feel exactly the same way. I've abandoned my intentions of living in the US, or even just visiting there solely because of this scandal. Not because of some deeply hurt morale or feeling, but because i simply wouldn't feel safe in the US anymore. I've been on the web for a very long time now, have read all kinds of chemistry, pyrotechnics and bomb-making newsgroups and website…

The week before I flew to the USA, two years ago, I was soooooo stressed out for similar reasons of really actually having "nothing to hide" and the problem where you don't get to decide or find out beforehand whether you had nothing to hide indeed.

In the end everything went fine, here I am, back, still got my laptop. Except those fuckers now have my mugshot and fingerprints on file. Funny thing, had I said that 10 years ago, you'd think I did something wrong and ask "huh for real? what did you do? what happened?" ... well, I entered the country, I left them no choice! :-/

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#175

Post by bambax »

Kylekramer wrote: post #100
bambax wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You, as a non-US citizen, are not protected by our constitution. This is a myth, recently revived by Republicans to justify "enhanced interrogation techniques" (ie, abominable torture methods that used to qualify as 'war crimes'). The most important articles of the Bill of Rights don't refer to "citizen" but to "people" in general. Here's the full text of the 4th Amendment, most relevant in this case The right of t…

Sure, but the whole Constitution begins with "We the People of the United States". You can argue that it should include non-citizens, but the constitution itself and subsequent applications are very clear that it does not. It is a somewhat odd proposition to claim the constitution of one country apply to all. Should the rest of the world have stopped drinking in 1919? (Not a Republican mythmaker who loves torture, ju…

The purpose of the US Constitution is not to tell people what to do or not do, it is to define very precisely what the US Government can and can't do (and how it should function), and therefore it seems more than logical that it would talk about what the US Government can or can't do to people in general (or animals, or nature).

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#176

Post by grkvlt »

furyg3 wrote: post #144
Goladus wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would, perhaps, be enlightening to quote the entire sentence from the US Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the c…

You are interpreting this precisely backwards. These "Rights" are unalienable. They are not to be given away, they are not to be taken away. Governments exist to secure these rights. To help protect these rights, the government may exist... but only by consent of the people being governed. It may be true that the Russian government does not give these rights to it's citizens, or that these citizens yield these rights…

> It may be true that the Russian government does not give these rights to it's citizens, or that these citizens yield these rights to the Russian government.

That isn't what the parent is talking about. He's asserting that only citizens of the US have granted the US the power to enforce the granting or ceding of rights. Non-US citizens must look to their own governments for such protection.

But, this is more like it:

> Because foreigners have not consented to being governed by the US, the rights of foreigners not to be spied on by the US government would go even further than the rights of Americans

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#177

Post by angersock »

4891 wrote: post #162
Goladus wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would, perhaps, be enlightening to quote the entire sentence from the US Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the c…

Thank you - this is the most sensible comment I've seen in this thread. Many thinkers throughout history have noted that states and criminal gangs are effectively the same. They are both inherently violent organisations. Criminal gangs are tiny states; states are large, settled criminal gangs. The Yakuza in Japan or the Cray family (when they ruled half of London) are examples of intermediate forms: criminal gangs th…

Absolutely fantastic post, sir or madam.

I very much agree that the rest of the world is being a bit two-faced, on the one hand enjoying immensely the pax americana which we have wrought and on the other decrying the evils of American imperialism--despite doing damned little to act in a similarly noble fashion.

As much as we may, for example, decry the surveillance of foreigners by the .gov and bemoan the lack of open immigration policies, we cannot do so without also acknowledging that the US is still very much better in these regards than many of the other first-world nations.

The failure of the US is perhaps a sadness, but the failure of the American Dream--were it to come to pass--is far, far worse.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#178

Post by andrewcooke »

andrewcooke wrote: post #155
pekk wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do non-US foreign intelligence agencies have equal interest in everyone? They do not.

sure, but when something happens like the recent GCHQ scandal in the uk, people don't get angry because "the english" are being tapped. they get angry because "people" are being tapped. there's not the same enshrined "us v them" attitude that you see so often in american countries. really, it's a thing. americans come off as extremely insular.

sorry "american politics", not "american countries".

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#179

Post by rayiner »

nkoren wrote: post #45

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gendered language aside, the idea of the founders was clearly that rights derive from one's innate humanity, and do not derive from government largess. This was the…

> that they are endowed by their Creator

Okay, so what about all of us that don't believe in the supernatural? Do our rights come from an all-loving God, or are they creations of man like everything else in society?

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#180

Post by e3pi »

sounds wrote: post #53
nkoren wrote: post #45

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gendered language aside, the idea of the founders was clearly that rights derive from one's innate humanity, and do not derive from government largess. This was the…

Thank you for that. Can I just say, I wouldn't say the Enlightenment Ideal is all but gone. It's not even near death. We, the people, chose leaders and were betrayed. That doesn't just apply to the US, but I'll start there. I believe the people were half-awake...but not completely unaware of who they were electing or what they would lose. The idealist's battle against tyranny on one side and anarchy on the other is s…

> The idealist's battle against tyranny on one side and anarchy on the other is strewn all across the pages of history. Some idealists lost their way. But the ideals, "Safety and Happiness" – really, the entire Declaration of Independence or the UN Declaration of Human Rights – the ideals don't die.

> They are self-evident. Like 3.14159 and 2.71828.

sounds, I'm with you on this one, being intrinsically inalienable -- incapable of being separated -- as in Plato's Republic, where the individual is homeomorphic to the enveloping state(cops, donuts, coffee cups are topologically equivalent therefore flock together) that you conduct your own personal House, COITUS(Congress), SCOTUS, POTUS, and JUDUS founded on the certain conviction that the mathematical constants will be in the sky tomorrow, we can improve our municipal safety officers by serving EQUAL EXCHANGE(tm) coffees:

http://equalexchange.coop/products/coffee

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