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Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

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Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#71

Post by jmadsen »

jmadsen wrote: post #10
rmc wrote: post #5

That's one thing that has annoyed me about the tech world's outrage and objections to the PRISM spying lark. They appear outraged that US citizens are spied on, with the implication that it was ok when non us citizens were spied on. Do I, a non us citizen, not have a right to privacy?

You, as a non-US citizen, are not protected by our constitution. Nor am I, a US citizen, protected from your government. I have no grounds to "raise outrage" at my government for spying on foreigners, much as I might disapprove. They don't break any laws when they do that. Moral rules, yes; disrespect to our friends and allies, yes; laws, no. When they spy on US citizens, they tear up our Constitution in doing so. Th…

I think a few of you don't understand my point, so perhaps I didn't explain it very well.

The US government is on the verge of becoming a totalitarian regime.

The US government is on the verge of throwing out the Constitution & just doing whatever the hell it wants from now on.

The US government is on the verge of declaring that there is no such thing as a law, only some rules it has decided to enforce to its own benefit

You want Americans to focus on fighting this, using our laws and Constitution as a legal basis, or do you want us to waste our time gnashing our teeth in front of the Fox News crowd that foreigners - which to the Fox News crowd means, "al Queda, Mexican drug cartels, smugglers, etc" - are having their email read?

In WWII there were a lot of sacrifices made so that Hitler & the Nazis didn't win. The war was more important than the battles or the individuals.

Spying on foreigners is an important issue. It just isn't the most important issue right now, so you'll have to take a backseat for a while. If we don't block this for Americans, you have absolutely no chance of having it blocked for you.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#72

Post by disbelief »

obviouslygreen wrote: post #50

This outrage at American reactions is terribly hypocritical. Yes, people -- regardless of nationality -- should be upset when they realize their privacy is being grossly violated without cause, by any government. However, people seem to think Americans should be more concerned about other people's rights than their own, when the real problem is the violation of everyone's rights. Despite this, all anyone is really in…

I don't think the author is saying "treat my rights as your primary motiviation", nor is he saying "you should be more concerned about other people's rights than your own."

What he is saying is that the American discourse over these violations — violations perpetrated by agencies within America upon as you say everyone's rights — tends to dehumanize anyone who isn't American. It seems that if the NSA had been using their Prism dragnet to target only non-Americans, then there would be no public outcry at all — as if the real outrage is the fact that American citizens might be the target of these blatantly illegal and wide-reaching abuses of power.

Perhaps, as you say, this is simply the American public "looking inwards" to it's own problems, but I'd argue that this is not your own problem. It's everyone's problem, and we all deserve equal treatment.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#73

Post by PavlovsCat »

eightyone wrote: post #68
PavlovsCat wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, and by the way, breaking moral rules is a hell of a good reason to raise outrage. I don’t understand why you seem to think that something being legal is reason to not be outraged. IMHO something I deem immoral being legal and happening is actually worse than it "just" happening. It's adding insult to injury, if you will, and of course it makes it much more likely to happen again, or even more and more.

I'm not sure exactly what your referencing, but if you are talking about all the stuff that's been going down in the U.S., Glenn Greenwald said at the Socialism Conference yesterday that a lot of what's going on isn't legal and has been ruled unconstitutional in the secret FISA court. Link to video: http://youtu.be/Uulv4ve6RJ8 Skip to 45:00 and watch for a couple minutes if you're interested in hearing just that. Tho…

I'm not sure exactly what your referencing

What I said was general, I wasn't thinking of anything in particular.. but thanks for that link, I will be sure to listen to it in full when I have time.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#74

Post by notimetorelax »

dasil003 wrote: post #51
Sami_Lehtinen wrote: post #2

I totally agree, I have been watching this totally pointless discussion about domestic spying all over the net. I was going to write about the topic, but someone did it already. My conclusion is that at least 95% of US population are so bad in geography that they don't know that they represent only less than 5% of world population. After all, it seems that only people who are voting in elections do matter at all. May…

> My conclusion is that at least 95% of US population are so bad in geography that they don't know that they represent only less than 5% of world population. Uh-huh. You've been watching those candid videos where they interview stupid Americans haven't you? Of course you probably realized that they are always filmed in heavily populated areas and there is always a cut between every interview. You know why? Because yo…

There has been some research done in this area [1]. What interests me more is how does this compare to the other countries, if someone has the link please post it here.

[1] http://www.nationalgeographic.com/roper2006/pdf/FINALReport2...

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#76

Post by chrisdevereux »

nkoren wrote: post #45

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gendered language aside, the idea of the founders was clearly that rights derive from one's innate humanity, and do not derive from government largess. This was the…

Actually, it died fairly quickly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts_of_1798

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#77

Post by dreamfactory »

UVB-76 wrote: post #39

I was going to write a comment to this effect on one of the many threads related to this subject, but figured it would fall on deaf ears. Americans should not underestimate the damage this scandal has done to the American 'brand'. Growing up, I was the Americophile of my friends. I loved American culture, I aspired to live the American dream, I fully intended to pursue American citizenship later in life. This is only…

Agree about the brand. This business has potential for a very expensive long term impact on US economy starting with cultural exports to tourism and associated services.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#78

Post by jmadsen »

Udo wrote: post #19
jmadsen wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, as a non-US citizen, are not protected by our constitution. Nor am I, a US citizen, protected from your government. I have no grounds to "raise outrage" at my government for spying on foreigners, much as I might disapprove. They don't break any laws when they do that. Moral rules, yes; disrespect to our friends and allies, yes; laws, no. When they spy on US citizens, they tear up our Constitution in doing so. Th…

Yet, I - a non-US citizen - am subject to all your whims and power grabs. You can't simply hide behind the assertion that the US is just another one of many countries vying for supremacy. For better or worse, the US sets the tone and the precedences for all of the Western countries' policies, and to top it off it is by far the most powerful when it comes to the military and secret services. You - a US citizen - might…

So what is your point? That I'm not spending time writing blogs about how broke up I am that foreigners are also being targeted? Ok, I'll go write a blog.

Personally I feel America is in a crisis right now, and I'd prefer to focus my energy on fighting something I actually have a legal basis for fighting and might win. We aren't talking morals, we are talking LAW.

Do you think that if we lose this in America, that will still be able to carry on and fight on your behalf?

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#79

Post by Ma8ee »

obviouslygreen wrote: post #50

This outrage at American reactions is terribly hypocritical. Yes, people -- regardless of nationality -- should be upset when they realize their privacy is being grossly violated without cause, by any government. However, people seem to think Americans should be more concerned about other people's rights than their own, when the real problem is the violation of everyone's rights. Despite this, all anyone is really in…

No, no one thinks that Americans should be concerned more with other people's rights than their own. We think that Americans should be concerned by something more than only the rights of Americans. What pisses us off is that the biggest excuse in the whole prism debacle is that they don't spy on Americans. And then debate circles around if it is true that only Americans are spied on or not. Very few question the validity of the fundamental idea that it is perfectly alright to spy on all non-Americans.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#80

Post by dreamfactory »

Yver wrote: post #8

What hurts me is that people are acting surprised that spy agencies are spying on people. Their job is to collect intelligence. If they can read your emails, they will. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intelligence_agencies

Their job most certainly isn't mass surveillance of civilian populations. If they thought it was, they need to be disbanded.
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