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Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

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Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#51

I totally agree, I have been watching this totally pointless discussion about domestic spying all over the net. I was going to write about the topic, but someone did it already. My conclusion is that at least 95% of US population are so bad in geography that they don't know that they represent only less than 5% of world population. After all, it seems that only people who are voting in elections do matter at all. May…

> My conclusion is that at least 95% of US population are so bad in geography that they don't know that they represent only less than 5% of world population.

Uh-huh. You've been watching those candid videos where they interview stupid Americans haven't you? Of course you probably realized that they are always filmed in heavily populated areas and there is always a cut between every interview. You know why? Because you can find ignorant people in any crowded place anywhere in the world. It's just more funny when it's Americans.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#52
post #10
post #5

That's one thing that has annoyed me about the tech world's outrage and objections to the PRISM spying lark. They appear outraged that US citizens are spied on, with the implication that it was ok when non us citizens were spied on. Do I, a non us citizen, not have a right to privacy?

You, as a non-US citizen, are not protected by our constitution. Nor am I, a US citizen, protected from your government. I have no grounds to "raise outrage" at my government for spying on foreigners, much as I might disapprove. They don't break any laws when they do that. Moral rules, yes; disrespect to our friends and allies, yes; laws, no. When they spy on US citizens, they tear up our Constitution in doing so. Th…

So human rights are unique feature only for US citizens in US constitution?

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#53
post #45

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gendered language aside, the idea of the founders was clearly that rights derive from one's innate humanity, and do not derive from government largess. This was the…

Thank you for that.

Can I just say, I wouldn't say the Enlightenment Ideal is all but gone. It's not even near death.

We, the people, chose leaders and were betrayed. That doesn't just apply to the US, but I'll start there. I believe the people were half-awake...but not completely unaware of who they were electing or what they would lose.

The idealist's battle against tyranny on one side and anarchy on the other is strewn all across the pages of history. Some idealists lost their way. But the ideals, "Safety and Happiness" – really, the entire Declaration of Independence or the UN Declaration of Human Rights – the ideals don't die.

They are self-evident. Like 3.14159 and 2.71828.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#54
> George Bush famously proclaimed: “You’re either with us, or against us”. He asked foreigners the world over to choose. The wholesale spying on “foreigners” says how we chose made little difference at all..

Maybe we should just create the "terrorist party", as in, we are all terrorist in the eyes of the US, so we might just have to get comfortable with the label.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#55
post #46
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are factually wrong. You, as a US citizen, are most certainly protected from my government by the German constitution. Not when it comes to all basic rights in the constitution (only Germans have freedom of movement, freedom of labor and freedom of association), but most are universal and apply to every person. The US constitution is out of date and simply wrong on this point. Human rights are universal and every…

Make clear what you mean by 'nationalism' before you use perjorative words like pest - as if your assertion is axiomatic.

If you have a definition by which it's not a pest, I'd love to hear it, honestly.

Wikipedia:

Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves a voluntary accepted or coercively imposed mode of identification with individual persons and a nation.

George Orwell:

http://www.george-orwell.org/Notes_on_Nationalism/0.html

I'd say identifying with anything other than oneself is even bigger a delusion than identifying with oneself, and since it's so widespread, calling it a pest is actually polite.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#56
post #53
post #45

The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Gendered language aside, the idea of the founders was clearly that rights derive from one's innate humanity, and do not derive from government largess. This was the…

Thank you for that. Can I just say, I wouldn't say the Enlightenment Ideal is all but gone. It's not even near death. We, the people, chose leaders and were betrayed. That doesn't just apply to the US, but I'll start there. I believe the people were half-awake...but not completely unaware of who they were electing or what they would lose. The idealist's battle against tyranny on one side and anarchy on the other is s…

We, the people, chose leaders and were betrayed. That doesn't just apply to the US...

Absolutely true. Unfortunately, in my opinion, one of the things that simply does not work in modern democracy is the election system, two-party death march or otherwise: Candidates play to emotion and often outright lie or intentionally overpromise solely for the purpose of attaining office. And it works, every damn time.

They then find themselves either predictably impotent or, worse, they settle in and show their real colors... and usually win re-election anyway.

If enough people continue to fail to understand this, the majority of the voting public will continue to actively subjugate everyone to the rule and whim of dangerously uninterested officials, and those who do understand will continue to find themselves without candidates worth voting for, as these races the world over are overwhelmingly choked with self-serving bureaucrats who have little if any interest in their constituents' (or anyone else's) well-being.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#57
post #23
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, as a non-US citizen, are not protected by our constitution. Nor am I, a US citizen, protected from your government. I have no grounds to "raise outrage" at my government for spying on foreigners, much as I might disapprove. They don't break any laws when they do that. Moral rules, yes; disrespect to our friends and allies, yes; laws, no. When they spy on US citizens, they tear up our Constitution in doing so. Th…

You are factually wrong. You, as a US citizen, are most certainly protected from my government by the German constitution. Not when it comes to all basic rights in the constitution (only Germans have freedom of movement, freedom of labor and freedom of association), but most are universal and apply to every person. The US constitution is out of date and simply wrong on this point. Human rights are universal and every…

Oh, and by the way, breaking moral rules is a hell of a good reason to raise outrage. I don’t understand why you seem to think that something being legal is reason to not be outraged.

IMHO something I deem immoral being legal and happening is actually worse than it "just" happening. It's adding insult to injury, if you will, and of course it makes it much more likely to happen again, or even more and more.

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#58
post #5

That's one thing that has annoyed me about the tech world's outrage and objections to the PRISM spying lark. They appear outraged that US citizens are spied on, with the implication that it was ok when non us citizens were spied on. Do I, a non us citizen, not have a right to privacy?

Privacy? If only. We have no rights as human beings, let alone privacy. The worst part is that America claims to have rights over us, where ever we are. It is a disgusting abuse of humanity that American asserts that its laws apply to world citizens, while denying them even the few rights Americans think they have.

Few countries stand up to the US, and if they dare, they get threatened. How vile is it to say to a country that they are to co-operate or get bombed back tho the stone age, or deny them aid or trade, which America knows mean food and water? Might as well just bomb them. How vile is it to kidnap people and torture them, then hold them indefinitely with out open due process? How vile is it to send flying killer robots over foreign soil to blow up families in order to kill one single person? If that isn't terror, I don't know what is. Essentially Americans treat foreigners like slaves, subhumans with less rights than proper humans, or "Americans".

But most Americans think this is a justifiable fantastic demonstration of American supremacy and power. They absolutely love it when America "kicks ass". They love all the military power. They love that other countries bow to America, out of fear. Its all "USA, USA, USA".

(Which, BTW, sounds to many non Americans like "Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil". We even see the the fist punching the air, which again looks a bit like a Nazi salute. If Americans reading this can change one single thing, please stop that. It a very scary thing to see. Or do average Americans know this already, and like it as much as the Germans did?)

Of course, the US has abused the rest of the world so much, that it knows that it has literally zero god will. Note how even the UK is reaching out across the world to forge new alliances. America doesn't have allies at all. Its has lackeys who fear it. There is no respect or love, just fear.

Saddest of all, and I have tried to say this many times before, is that the good in America and Americans is fantastic. There is a baby in this bath water. Yeah, we will lap up America's blue jeans, music, movies, internet, (not the cars, they are crap!), porn, diet coke, burgers, hot dogs, space program, silicone women, etc, etc. Every American I have ever met has been decent. A bit annoying, but basically decent.

Please, Americans, sort your country out before it falls like every other empire. I don't want Chinese porn....

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#59
The sad thing is, we don't have international law for these things. Thus, it is usually easier to ask a foreign intelligence agency if they could spy on a domestic suspect than to deal with it within the country.

And this hurts so much, because the internet is perceived to not be bound by countries and borders, while still residing mostly on US soil. But the rules for spying are most certainly governed by borders; This leads to this weird asymmetric situation where one particular domestic intelligence agency is able to collect almost all international data.

What we really would need is citizenship for data. In a way, it does not make sense that Facebook owns my data. My data should be my own, and thus be governed by whatever jurisdiction I happen to live in.

Or put differently, one way out of this is to host your own email, backup, syncing, etc. That way the data is yours, and governed by the same rules as you. This is what I am doing.

Or maybe, Google should split up into several legal entities that each are accountable for the data for one country. But clearly, that would just leave us all flocking to Iceland or the Vatican or something like that...

Re: Why discussions on cyber snooping have been so painful for us

#60
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for that. Can I just say, I wouldn't say the Enlightenment Ideal is all but gone. It's not even near death. We, the people, chose leaders and were betrayed. That doesn't just apply to the US, but I'll start there. I believe the people were half-awake...but not completely unaware of who they were electing or what they would lose. The idealist's battle against tyranny on one side and anarchy on the other is s…

We, the people, chose leaders and were betrayed. That doesn't just apply to the US... Absolutely true. Unfortunately, in my opinion, one of the things that simply does not work in modern democracy is the election system, two-party death march or otherwise: Candidates play to emotion and often outright lie or intentionally overpromise solely for the purpose of attaining office. And it works, every damn time. They then…

No, the ability to choose the outcome is still well and truly in our hands.

I didn't say when or where, but I do believe that the power to govern invariably flows from the people themselves.

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