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Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

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Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#41

Post by codex »

JulianWasTaken wrote: post #34
codex wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone murdered your parents, to 100% certainty. They're found not guilty in court, and cannot be retried. They are 100% certain to kill again. You kill them and are found guilty of murder. You've performed both a service and committed a crime. The law is a system. For the system to work, it must be enforced fairly and without political considerations.

The law is a service, not a system. Or at least that is the position that someone making the argument you're responding to probably holds. No one cares what the law says. Decide whether what he did was good and if so it wasn't a crime. If the law says it was then do what it takes to avoid injustice. Same goes for your analogy.

Agreed--there needs to be some sort of decision making process (or "trial") to objectively determine whether what somebody did was OK or not.

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#42

Post by JulianWasTaken »

codex wrote: post #41
JulianWasTaken wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law is a service, not a system. Or at least that is the position that someone making the argument you're responding to probably holds. No one cares what the law says. Decide whether what he did was good and if so it wasn't a crime. If the law says it was then do what it takes to avoid injustice. Same goes for your analogy.

Agreed--there needs to be some sort of decision making process (or "trial") to objectively determine whether what somebody did was OK or not.

Good -- I agree with that as well :)

Which means I think we're in agreement that whether fleeing is appropriate depends on the probability of fair trial.

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#43

Post by pfortuny »

narcissus wrote: post #35
dragonwriter wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Russia couldn't detain him for questioning, let him out of the car, now he's touched the native soil and can be arrested on immigration charges and nicely deported to the U.S. embassy. It wouldn't surprise me if, on paper at least, being compelled by the government to pass out of the area not requiring a visa was not an immigration offense. It also isn't surprising to me that…

"It wouldn't surprise me if, on paper at least, being compelled by the government to pass out of the area not requiring a visa was not an immigration offense." So I'm not entirely sure how this squares up with my anecdote, but flying from Sydney, Australia to Vancouver, Canada (did, at some point) require stopping in Honolulu to refuel and take on passengers. At that point in the journey, passengers were (are?) requi…

That just shows how scared are the US.

When I was in London, 2002, a Chinese national living there wanted to attend a solidarity camp in El Salvador, in august 2002, organized by the hall of residence I was living in. The flight had a single scale in the US (probably Florida but who knows, it was not a 'stay', just a scale). BOWM: travel forbidden.

Uhu? What?

Just that. NO WAY you are going to fly to El Salvador via the US.

Mmmhh I call that being terrorized.

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#45

Post by columbo »

mikeyouse wrote: post #38
columbo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean the promises to arrest him for releasing confidential information? Being arrested and facing a fair trial isn't anyone's fear. Being arrested, placed in solitary confinment for months on end, subjected to technically-not-torture-torture, threats against your family all the while having your entire character destroyed thread by thread until the day you stand in front of a show room to argue why you should o…

He's accused of three things[1]; 1. Theft of Government Property 2. Unauthorized Communication of National Defense Information 3. Willful Communication of Classified Communications Intelligence Information to an Unauthorized Person Is there some chance that he's innocent of any of those charges, and will be wrongly convicted? They all seem pretty obvious and there are Federal laws in place to guide penalties and fine…

> Why is everyone convinced he won't have a fair trial?

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/manning-treatment-i...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#C...

> Is a result where he ends up in jail an unfair result?

NO. If we had set a high bar for wanting a free and fair trial (which we haven't) then the case would be decided in an open manner which could very well end in jail time, community service or some equivalent. I fully support that process.

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#46

Post by codex »

dragonwriter wrote: post #17
codex wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of an extradition treaty does not prevent Russia from handing Snowden over, or expelling him; it would merely obligate them to.

> Lack of an extradition treaty does not prevent Russia from handing Snowden over, or expelling him; it would merely obligate them to. If Russia has a constitutional government with limited powers (which, I think, on paper it does, whatever it may otherwise do in practice), not having a legal basis to detain and hand him over may, legally at least, prevent them from detaining him and handing him over.

What's so fascinating about this, to me, is that Snowden is in the airport without a Russian visa. So is he in Russia, or not? Do the laws of Russia apply within the airport, or not? Whose laws do apply? What happens if you commit a crime in the airport? And if someone is stuck in the airport, with no way to get in or out (a.k.a. 'The Terminal'), or who are unwilling to leave, do they just stay there forever? Are there hundreds or thousands of refugees in the Moscow airport as we speak, unwilling to leave, with no way for Russia to get rid of them? Are there a bunch of terrorists hanging out in the airport, snubbing their noses at the countries that want them?

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#47

Post by abraininavat »

mikeyouse wrote: post #38
columbo wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean the promises to arrest him for releasing confidential information? Being arrested and facing a fair trial isn't anyone's fear. Being arrested, placed in solitary confinment for months on end, subjected to technically-not-torture-torture, threats against your family all the while having your entire character destroyed thread by thread until the day you stand in front of a show room to argue why you should o…

He's accused of three things[1]; 1. Theft of Government Property 2. Unauthorized Communication of National Defense Information 3. Willful Communication of Classified Communications Intelligence Information to an Unauthorized Person Is there some chance that he's innocent of any of those charges, and will be wrongly convicted? They all seem pretty obvious and there are Federal laws in place to guide penalties and fine…

Your stance seems to be that, since he committed the actions he's accused of, and since those actions happen to be illegal, that he therefore should end up in jail. Is that really your stance? It's not a very nuanced one.

I'm curious, would you have begrudged a slave for escaping from his slave-owner, given that that action was clearly illegal?

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#48

Post by dragonwriter »

vinceguidry wrote: post #39
dragonwriter wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Either Snowden performed a service or he committed a crime. He can't have done both. He actually can have done both. That something has value to the public does not mean it is not within the scope of prohibition of a criminal statute. (Further, even if there was a blanket "public service" exception to the applicable criminal laws, its quite possible that some of the information he absconded with and released could…

I'm aware that the law can prohibit actions that are ultimately good for society. That doesn't make it rational.

I think you are confusing "rational" with "fitting my aesthetic ideal of how things should be".

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#49

Post by codex »

icebraining wrote: post #28
vinceguidry wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm grateful that he shed some light on a very troubling program, but that doesn't just grant him immunity from prosecution. This doesn't seem like a rational position. Either Snowden performed a service or he committed a crime. He can't have done both. The fact that it's really a subjective call speaks to its political nature. As such, there is no dishonor in absconding to a country with more favorable politics.

Either Snowden performed a service or he committed a crime. Isn't that what a trial - after arrest and prosecution - is supposed to determine? The problem is not prosecution, it's that a fair trial is hardly guaranteed.

38% of Americans think that Snowden shouldn't be prosecuted. While not 50%, it's reasonably high. That, combined with jury selection and sequestration, ought to do the trick--but if OJ Simpson can get away with murder, anything's possible in the U.S.

Re: Putin: Russia can't turn over Snowden

#50

Post by vinceguidry »

dragonwriter wrote: post #48
vinceguidry wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware that the law can prohibit actions that are ultimately good for society. That doesn't make it rational.

I think you are confusing "rational" with "fitting my aesthetic ideal of how things should be".

How would you define "rational," then? Philosophy, or "love of wisdom", of which law is a branch, is all about trying to apply aesthetic ideals to the real world.
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