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An Apology to my European IT Team

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Re: An Apology to my European IT Team

#51

Post by rmc »

Camillo wrote: post #39

While OP's apology is appreciable, there was more than enough information available in 2008 to understand that his Czech colleagues were right. The Prism scandal may have come as a surprise to US citizens, but the US has been spying foreign nationals and companies for years, and we've long known about it - haven't you heard of Echelon? It was also well known that these systems were used for industrial espionage.

Exactly, AFAIR it's always been sorta known that US intelligence agencies can spy on non-US citizen data held on US servers without a warrent. The PRISM lark is mostly big because it's spying on US citizens.

Re: An Apology to my European IT Team

#52

Post by prof_hobart »

skrebbel wrote: post #42
Camillo wrote: post #39

While OP's apology is appreciable, there was more than enough information available in 2008 to understand that his Czech colleagues were right. The Prism scandal may have come as a surprise to US citizens, but the US has been spying foreign nationals and companies for years, and we've long known about it - haven't you heard of Echelon? It was also well known that these systems were used for industrial espionage.

Huh. How is "You should've known!" a useful response to an apology? Of course he should've known, that's why he's apologizing.

There is a big difference between "Subsequent facts have shown them to be right" and "Evidence existing at the time already strongly indicated they were right".

Re: An Apology to my European IT Team

#53

Post by alan_cx »

Camillo wrote: post #39

While OP's apology is appreciable, there was more than enough information available in 2008 to understand that his Czech colleagues were right. The Prism scandal may have come as a surprise to US citizens, but the US has been spying foreign nationals and companies for years, and we've long known about it - haven't you heard of Echelon? It was also well known that these systems were used for industrial espionage.

I "know" that aliens are kept at Area 51. Should I prepare for the invasion?

Nothing was "known" until these leaks. It was the conspiracy theory of nut jobs. Now and only now is it "known".

Re: An Apology to my European IT Team

#54

Post by greyman »

drawkbox wrote: post #44
greyman wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what protection of stored data do you mean should Congress find, by introducing some Laws? Because, well, if the data are not encrypted on the server, then someone could still take them... that's how Internet works. For now, the only solution I can think of is that you encrypt the data locally, and upload only the encrypted data - but this way, the cloud provider will not able to provide any additional value. Or…

Not necessarily talking about encryption or security of data, that should already be an inherent part of cloud systems. I am talking about protections on unauthorized access by agencies (even for national security) meaning no more blanket access to all email/files/etc rather explicit machine read systems that only access data that has a warranted access and useful to the investigations. Human access should not be all…

> Human access should not be allowed

Yes, of course, but this is not enforceable. You have to trust the company that they will not allow it. You can't ensure it.

Re: An Apology to my European IT Team

#55

Post by kome »

alan_cx wrote: post #53
Camillo wrote: post #39

While OP's apology is appreciable, there was more than enough information available in 2008 to understand that his Czech colleagues were right. The Prism scandal may have come as a surprise to US citizens, but the US has been spying foreign nationals and companies for years, and we've long known about it - haven't you heard of Echelon? It was also well known that these systems were used for industrial espionage.

I "know" that aliens are kept at Area 51. Should I prepare for the invasion? Nothing was "known" until these leaks. It was the conspiracy theory of nut jobs. Now and only now is it "known".

> It was the conspiracy theory of nut jobs.

no. you should have a very short memory, or you just consider the dossier made by "European Commission" about Echelon the work of nut jobs: http://cryptome.org/echelon-ep-fin.htm

Re: An Apology to my European IT Team

#56

Post by jviddy »

dangrossman wrote: post #29
bigiain wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't the NSA claiming they only need a FISA warrant if both ends of the correspondence are (reasonably believed to be) US citizens on US territory? For those of us in "the rest of the world" or any Americans corresponding with us I believe the restrictions on the NSA are "Yeah, do whatever the hell you want!"

FISA, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, only creates warrants for surveilling foreign persons. It also requires that the surveillance actively minimize data collected on US persons in the process.

It that it covers foreign persons who are believed to be outside of the US

Re: An Apology to my European IT Team

#57

Post by XorNot »

grey-area wrote: post #50
XorNot wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's released - again - a powerpoint presentation. The NSA phone record stuff? That was public knowledge in 2007. The GCHQ stuff seems like it was a powerpoint presentation too - no one's claimed anything more. It's a leak, yes. He should be prosecuted for it, yes. But it's also widely disseminated internal data by nature of being a presentation. Everything else is him claiming to have knowledge of things, without pr…

He's released more than 'a powerpoint presentation'. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/06/veri... http://www.guardian.co.uk/law/interactive/2013/jun/21/fisa-c... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/jun/20/exhi... QED. That's not all of course, but gives the lie to your claims. This is not counting the thousands of documents submitted to journalists, who have only published a selection,…

Lie to my claims?

My question is, what has Snowden released which confirms the idea that he had the type of broad-ranging access which you claim.

Nothing you just cited confirms that: the first is Verizon phone records. Again - public knowledge since 2007 if anyone was actually paying attention.

The second and third are a warrant of the type used to request surveillance (you know, due process and all that) and a document of procedures for minimizing data on US citizens.

Both documents, explicitly dealing with not collecting broad-ranging data on US citizens and demonstrating oversight and limitation to the process. So again, where is the smoking gun? Where is any proof that Edward Snowden has done more then simply make a copy of a library of guidelines and procedures for NSA employees? Because nothing you just linked proves that he has anything substantive which actually proves wrongdoing, overreach, or the NSA going beyond mission parameters.

Re: An Apology to my European IT Team

#58

Post by stygianguest »

rmc wrote: post #51
Camillo wrote: post #39

While OP's apology is appreciable, there was more than enough information available in 2008 to understand that his Czech colleagues were right. The Prism scandal may have come as a surprise to US citizens, but the US has been spying foreign nationals and companies for years, and we've long known about it - haven't you heard of Echelon? It was also well known that these systems were used for industrial espionage.

Exactly, AFAIR it's always been sorta known that US intelligence agencies can spy on non-US citizen data held on US servers without a warrent. The PRISM lark is mostly big because it's spying on US citizens.

It is big for that reason in the US. The rest of the world is shocked by the, now undeniable, extend of the spying.

Everybody will think thrice before storing their data in the US. Especially since Obama has made it more than clear that the rule of law does not apply to foreigners.

Re: An Apology to my European IT Team

#59

Post by narcissus »

XorNot wrote: post #47
grey-area wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Snowden didn't circumvent anything, because he hasn't released anything. He clearly has released top secret documents; your assertion that he "hasn't released anything" is simply untrue. If you truly feel this isn't a leak, you obviously think the top secret classification is irrelevant and disagree with the US gov. on this. Some examples of his assertions verified by documents: NSA keeping daily phone records for ev…

He's released - again - a powerpoint presentation. The NSA phone record stuff? That was public knowledge in 2007. The GCHQ stuff seems like it was a powerpoint presentation too - no one's claimed anything more. It's a leak, yes. He should be prosecuted for it, yes. But it's also widely disseminated internal data by nature of being a presentation. Everything else is him claiming to have knowledge of things, without pr…

If he hasn't released anything of use, why is he being charged with espionage?

Re: An Apology to my European IT Team

#60

Post by pc86 »

leoc wrote: post #45
alrs wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of work isn't informal. Economic espionage is a big part of what intelligence agencies are doing all day. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/070200-02.htm

One unintended consequence of the Snowden leak is to advertise this service to US businesses. My guess is that the discreet inquiries are already winging their way towards Congressmen.

No.

With the exception of the handful of Members on relevant intelligence committees, most Members of Congress were not aware of the massive scope of this program, or even that it existed in its current form.

Access to this type of information by a private citizen would require a hell of a lot more access than writing a big check to a Representative can get you.

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