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The Decline and Fall of the English Major

nytimes.com

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Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#51

Post by bane »

rdouble wrote: post #39
bane wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's sad that the classical education is no more, but it's also true that the humanities rotted from within This really resonated with me. I find the concept of a classical education immensely important. I originally wanted to be a music major before diverting to CS. Even during my CS studies, I took extra liberal coursework to try and "round out" my education: history courses, literature, etc. I found it troubling…

I disagree. Tourists in museums are generally bored by the classical/baroque/renaissance art section and entertained by the weird stuff in the contemporary section. If their jaws are agape it's because they are falling asleep, or because they weren't expecting the Mona Lisa to be so small.

And yet the classical/baroque/renaissance art museums are packed to the gills full of tourists who just sqeaked in after a 3 hour wait in line, while the modern art museums, while not empty, are certainly not trying to fend off the crowds.

Nothing can prepare you for the press of people even in the off-season clamoring to get into the Uffizi -- who's main claims to fame are:

1) being the main museum in Florence

2) a forgettable Michelangelo

3) one stiff da Vinci and one musky da Vinci, both forgettable.

but while there you might turn a corner and see something like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/Piero_di_...

which would be just at home in a surrealist installation at the MoMA as in the Uffizi.

But I do have to agree, the never ending pictures of punctured saints with long faces, Madonna and Child's and Crucifixes does get tiresome. At least there's always Caravaggio to make things interesting for the modern audience.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#52

Post by nooron »

casual_slacker wrote: post #28
jmduke wrote: post #23

I'll say this: more so than any other department or discipline (yes, including computer science), I think a person would benefit most from a few properly taught college English classes. Well-taught classes (and I took enough good and bad English classes to recognize the distinction) are completely irreplaceable by Google or MOOCs. They focus overwhelmingly on the art of discourse: sure, there are papers and exams but…

A big problem lies in secondary school. There's very little exposure to formal argument, and heavy emphasis fitting ideas into a rigid paragraph structure.

Goodness, yes.

My academic background is a mix of humanities and third-rate engineering (history and economics, hah).

I find that even at high levels in undergrad history, there's little sense that arguments don't have to-- and usually don't!-- adhere to the 5-7 paragraph template/bullshit one's often taught in secondary school.

I used to tutor a fair bit, and weaning people off that stilted and artificial convention became one of my preoccupations.

Now that I'm done bloviating, an interesting historical analogue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-legged_essay

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#53

Post by gruseom »

abraininavat wrote: post #47
sk5t wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say the parent comment is right on target, given the understanding that "Philistine" is not a synonym for "ignorant." There is no essential smugness in observing that students who know little philosophy, art, history, or discourse tend to consider them so much hogwash.

A Philistine is an anti-intellectual or a non-intellectual -- a person with a materialistic frame of mind, lacking the education, intelligence, or will to focus on ideas rather than things. To suggest that a Philistine is a person who is ignorant strictly of "philosophy, art, history, or discourse" is to ignore that, when the term came about, those subjects were a huge part of every curriculum. We've moved on since t…

No, it doesn't just mean anti-intellectual. It's specifically about culture, and has always included the inability to appreciate (or hostility toward) the values conveyed by art and literature. You don't get to change what words mean, and as someone who just accused me of unduly criticizing others, you might want to avoid personal insults for a spell.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#54

Post by ritchiea »

sk5t wrote: post #41
krakensden wrote: post #16

> No one has found a way to put a dollar sign on this kind of literacy, and I doubt anyone ever will. But everyone who possesses it — no matter how or when it was acquired — knows that it is a rare and precious inheritance. This is a widespread sentiment. This is even a chic sentiment. This is maybe even a sentiment I once sympathized with. It is also the kind of romantic bullshit that hurts people. It doesn't really…

Are you arguing that there exists a class of people smart enough to gain admission into and pay for college, yet too simpleminded to assess the hazy job prospects based around a degree in English, psychology, art history, and the like? As far as I know, every major world culture produces writers, poets, sculptors, and musicians, and in no case is an education in those fields a guaranteed ticket to economic prosperity…

You're assuming a lot here. A lot of intelligent people are told at a young age that college is an answer to their life aspirations. Just college. Not college and smart decisions about what to study and what habits to form and who to make friends with and what to do in the years in between. College. That's it. As a culture, we've told young people that.

That's what I was told at least. I went to liberal arts school and studied psychology and I had no idea what would be necessary to get a job after graduation. In fact I assumed since I was in college and all these smart interesting adults around me seemed to think studying psychology or English was a normal decision that I wouldn't have to worry about practical things like finding a job afterwards because I was at a good college and after a good college those sort of things fall into place. Fortunately for me I am resourceful and patient with the idea that my education taught me to think and communicate well and that practical skills are things you can acquire on your own time and hard work.

But a lot of teenagers are told college alone is an answer. And young people are naive. It is a problem with how we guide young people through their lives not a problem with them not understanding the world.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#55

Post by lemmsjid »

patio11 wrote: post #35

The first paragraph would be improved by the economic reality that dare not speak its name: adjunct . Most people who pursue the PhD in English will fail to join the one profession which actually needs English PhDs (training future English PhDs) and instead, if they want to continue putting to use the last 7+ years of their life dedicated to mastering the reification of privilege and construction of the other as demo…

I guess a lot of it comes down to quality of instruction. One of my most eye opening experiences as an English major was when I turned an essay about a religious text (honestly I forget which one). The essay used a writing style that intentionally aped Nietzche's "Twilight of the Idols" to eviscerate the idea of religiosity. It was the type of essay I was used to getting an A on, because I was showing off all of my pedestrian literary and rhetorical flourishes to please an already-converted audience.

I got a fail on the paper and a summons to the professor's office. He raked me over the coals for failing to do the most important thing--respect the material. After all, what was I trying to achieve? Ultimately, nothing--I was just spewing my anger at religion, in the same way that stereotypical fundamentalists spew their anger at infidels. Like a hurt animal, I was using my best offensive skill--a young adroitness with language--to make a childish swipe at something beyond my understanding.

In other words, he called me out for my empty intellectual exercises. I was hurt and broken. Then I mended myself, and I thank him forever for doing that.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#56

Post by petegrif »

To my eye there is a major problem with the piece. Studying English Literature is not just learning how to write. Not is it the only way to learn how to write. One might, for example, argue that philosophy is a superior training in how to construct a coherent argument. It is supposedly also learning how to read. And IMHO this has been profoundly corrupted by the poisonous influence of a series of 'schools' informed by half digested Continental philosophers. Such philosophers are muddy enough for other philosophers and associated wannabes, but such obscurantism has been a horrific influence on the humanities. Reading through the filter of one or other of these corrupting lenses diminishes pleasure in the the text. No wonder people don't enjoy reading any more.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#57

Post by foobarbazqux »

abraininavat wrote: post #36
foobarbazqux wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a major is a program of study, then to study a major is to study a program of study. It's possible, of course, but I don't think that's what most majors do. And English ones especially would see the subtle language implications here. (As you can see we're both already abusing the term: majors are also those that enroll in a particular program of study, but I'm quite sure he didn't mean to study them.) It just seem…

Thanks for illuminating the conversation by demonstrating pedantry of the type so often heard from English majors. You've done so to cleverly illustrate part of the reason the major is on its way to irrelevance, no doubt.

It seems like you're having a bad day, so I've given you an upvote.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#58

Post by gruseom »

patio11 wrote: post #35

The first paragraph would be improved by the economic reality that dare not speak its name: adjunct . Most people who pursue the PhD in English will fail to join the one profession which actually needs English PhDs (training future English PhDs) and instead, if they want to continue putting to use the last 7+ years of their life dedicated to mastering the reification of privilege and construction of the other as demo…

But your comment already takes for granted that there's no purpose in studying literature other than a career in academia (presumably because education is only about careers to begin with). I'd say the battle for the things worth caring about here was lost long before that assumption became not-even-worth-bothering-to-make-explicit. And sure, the economics are pathetic and the profession is rife with horseshit.

The reason I studied literature for a while was that I wanted to learn what literature could teach me, because I wanted to connect with a noble tradition, and things like that. At the time, if anyone had asked me "what are you going to 'do' with that? what about the economics?" (and I know this, because they did), I would have said that economics aren't everything. Are they?

Edit: come to think of it, that battle was probably already lost when people tried to pretend that there was a viable middle-class career path in any of it to begin with. Traditionally, this stuff was produced by the leisure classes, entertainment professionals, and poor bohemians. I'm not sure the marriage with academia turned out to be a very good or a very long-lasting thing. I'm quite sure that tying this cultural tradition to any short-term notion of economic utility is pointless; might as well shoot it in the head.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#59

Post by jlgreco »

sk5t wrote: post #50
jlgreco wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bizarro literature based Hacker News where a person is saying "Do you really need a full Comp Sci major to write code? Seems like one or two classes would do." I didn't know this Hacker News was literature based. Interesting. Where is the non-bizarro one?

No, it's the alternate universe HN that would be literature-based. This one is loosely oriented around topics such as general interest, startup-financing, and social/political dealings, with the fans of each occasionally arguing that the others don't belong.

You appear to have missed my joke. This clearly is a HN that largely believes that CS degrees are unnecessary.

Re: The Decline and Fall of the English Major

#60

Post by bane »

saraid216 wrote: post #49
casual_slacker wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big problem lies in secondary school. There's very little exposure to formal argument, and heavy emphasis fitting ideas into a rigid paragraph structure.

IME, I was pushed into the 5-paragraph form more during primary education; in secondary school, there were no such requirements. (That might be a consequence of having been moved into AP classes; I never looked into what regular English did.) I think this was a good thing, since I was forced to learn to support my claims and look at them structurally. The issue is that "English" is a non-subject. In early education,…

The 5-paragraph essay gets a lot of hate, much of it deserved as it gets overused, but I've found it a very helpful tool to get students to organize their thoughts. I used to help tutor East Asian ESL students and getting them to understand how to make an argument and then support it with evidence was difficult, but once they grokked how it worked, vastly improved their communications.

Were I a regular English teacher, I don't think I'd let a student coast in 5-paragraph beyond a semester.

> The issue is that "English" is a non-subject. In early education, it's about literacy: being able to read and write at all. As you advance, it becomes about logic: being able to coherently express your substantiated view. And then, at the end, it becomes about literature: using deeper historical contexts to analyze a work deeply and interestingly.

A very good point. We used to call "English" education by the subject you were learning "reading" "writing" "grammar" "spelling" "punctuation" "letters", "creative writing", "technical writing", "literary analysis" etc. But in some grand scheme to simplify things I guess we just use "English" now, which is frankly lame.

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