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Chomsky: spying does not protect you

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Re: Chomsky: spying does not protect you

#51

Post by danenania »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #40
patrickaljord wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stop supporting the abusive policies of Israel Really? You had to drag Israel into that? You're aware that the only "abuse" Arabs are actually angry about is the fact that Israel exists at all? I'm an Arab so let me tell you, any stupidity that is committed in the West Bank is overblown by Arabs to delegitimate Israel which is part of Arabs quest to get rid of Israel altogether. They consider the whole of Israel to…

There needs to be more good faith from both sides; until then it will be quite a mess. As a stable functioning democracy, the Israeli people really should decide to stop the settlements even though that won't bring about peace: it does them no real good while merely agitating an already volatile situation. The Palestinians (including Gaza and Hezbollah) should also develop their government into something not dysfunct…

The US can't prevent regional conflicts. Getting involved just helps them to spiral out of control and simultaneously puts America's own neck on the line.

If there were actually a situation where a so-called adversary presented a legitimate threat to the US if left alone, it might be a different debate, but that hasn't been the case for many years. None of the states that the US is currently fighting in could hope to threaten it militarily in their wildest dreams. Iran, for example, which we are supposed to be so frightened of, has 1/45th the gdp and roughy 1/100th the military budget of the US.

The US could cut its military budget by half and go into full defensive mode and still be completely untouchable by state actors, while removing the primary motivation for non-state attacks. True, the taliban might still kill people, just as plenty of regimes that the US supports like Saudi Arabia and Bahrain kill those it opposes. The US can't fix the world. It has enough problems of its own to worry about.

Re: Chomsky: spying does not protect you

#52

Post by sneak »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #40
patrickaljord wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stop supporting the abusive policies of Israel Really? You had to drag Israel into that? You're aware that the only "abuse" Arabs are actually angry about is the fact that Israel exists at all? I'm an Arab so let me tell you, any stupidity that is committed in the West Bank is overblown by Arabs to delegitimate Israel which is part of Arabs quest to get rid of Israel altogether. They consider the whole of Israel to…

There needs to be more good faith from both sides; until then it will be quite a mess. As a stable functioning democracy, the Israeli people really should decide to stop the settlements even though that won't bring about peace: it does them no real good while merely agitating an already volatile situation. The Palestinians (including Gaza and Hezbollah) should also develop their government into something not dysfunct…

> We can argue all day if its worse for civilians to be killed by drones or the Taliban, but they are still dead.

Except in one situation it's not "us" killing them. Or our tax dollars paying for the flying killer robots that do the job.

Re: Chomsky: spying does not protect you

#53

Post by danenania »

discostrings wrote: post #48
joelrunyon wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is copy/paste the same exact response from the top thread on reddit[1] Been seeing this a lot around here lately...Could be the same user, but I've seen it happening enough that I bet it's not. [1] http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1gxehl/chomsky_sp...

It looks like the reddit user "kaax" is taking insightful posts from HN and posting them on reddit [for karma?]. See the Bitcoin comments at http://www.reddit.com/user/kaax and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5929622 .

It's kind of sleazy but I guess given the topic that I'm just happy for the words to reach more eyes.

Re: Chomsky: spying does not protect you

#54

Post by danenania »

ars wrote: post #49
rbanffy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

danenania's point remains valid if the Israel part is omitted. I grew up under a military dictatorship endorsed by the US and I can tell you there are still lots of people very resentful of that support. Reducing foreign intervention is the cheapest way to demotivate potential terrorists. Unfortunately, doing so now would risk making them believe they won something.

> danenania's point remains valid if the Israel part is omitted. You mean "only if". The Muslims who hate Jews (and via extension Israel), are happy to hate America without any help from America's policies. It makes no difference what Israel does - they will hate Jews and Israel without reservations and without end. The only thing Israel can do is make them scared, which will hopefully keep their hate in theory and n…

Regardless of one's perspective on the Israel-Palestine conflict, the fact remains that providing extensive military support to a nation that is a symbol of oppression in the region greatly increases the risk of terrorist attacks against the US. Save for a tiny elite, there is no corresponding benefit for the American people that justifies this risk, while the costs are many.

Re: Chomsky: spying does not protect you

#55

Post by MarkMc »

abalone wrote: post #13

Favorite quote: "Obama is running the biggest terrorist operation that exists maybe in history." "Suppose you are walking down the street and you don't know whether two minutes from now the guy across the street and everything around him is going to be blown away by a sudden explosion run by somebody a couple thousand miles away. You're terrorized. And in fact villages, regions, countries are terrorized by these [dro…

OK, I can understand Chomsky's argument that drone strikes should be classed as a terrorist operations. But the 'biggest in history'? What about the fire-bombing of Tokyo, the rape of Nankin or the genocide of Cambodia?

Re: Chomsky: spying does not protect you

#56

Post by shardling »

beloch wrote: post #38

If you're looking for a simple way to reduce support for the Taliban and start bringing stability to Pakistan and Afghanistan, look no further than grounding the drones. Vietnam taught U.S. strategists that wars of attrition simply don't work. You'll never kill all of the enemy because every attack creates more enemies than it destroys. In this sense, drone attacks do exactly the opposite of what they're supposed to…

>Vietnam taught U.S. strategists that wars of attrition simply don't work. You'll never kill all of the enemy because every attack creates more enemies than it destroys.

There is an absolutely amazing Rumsfield moment where he acknowledges this, but draws the conclusion that the solution is to kill them more quickly!

Re: Chomsky: spying does not protect you

#57

Post by ars »

danenania wrote: post #54
ars wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> danenania's point remains valid if the Israel part is omitted. You mean "only if". The Muslims who hate Jews (and via extension Israel), are happy to hate America without any help from America's policies. It makes no difference what Israel does - they will hate Jews and Israel without reservations and without end. The only thing Israel can do is make them scared, which will hopefully keep their hate in theory and n…

Regardless of one's perspective on the Israel-Palestine conflict, the fact remains that providing extensive military support to a nation that is a symbol of oppression in the region greatly increases the risk of terrorist attacks against the US. Save for a tiny elite, there is no corresponding benefit for the American people that justifies this risk, while the costs are many.

You mean a symbol of freedom not oppression.

I am aware of how jealous the Arabs are of Israel, and how they wish they could also have those freedoms. It's of course part of the reason that the Arab administrations demonize Israel so much - so that their own people don't complain about their own countries.

But that's exactly why the US should support them so strongly, this is what America was founded on. Even if there is no benefit.

> greatly increases the risk of terrorist attacks against the US.

No it doesn't. America is also a symbol of freedom, just like Israel and they hate America just fine, even without mentioning Israel.

But you are wrong about the benefits though, just for the consumer an enormous amount of technology comes out of Israel. And for America to turn away from Israel would be the same as renouncing the principles America was founded on. I hope to never see a day when America doesn't at least try to uphold these values (even if the actions aren't what they should, at least the ideal is there).

I'm sure you've head the saying about trading security for liberty. And the same is true for ideals. Sometimes you have to fight for your ideals. Even if there is a cost. The downsides of having no ideals at all is just not worth it.

Re: Chomsky: spying does not protect you

#58

Post by foobarqux »

emiljbs wrote: post #47
calibraxis wrote: post #3

There's a recent philosophical interview where middle-school students asked Chomsky some questions: ( http://www.zcommunications.org/noam-chomsky-beyond-fascism-b... ) I liked the discussion of proto-humans, and comparisons to other species. Helps put our violence and self-destructiveness into perspective for me.

Do you have any other nice interviews with Chomsky like that? I find it very hard (as a non-native speaker) to hear and understand what he says in interviews, so text is best for me...

http://www.chomsky.info/interviews.htm

Re: Chomsky: spying does not protect you

#59

Post by rbanffy »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #43
rbanffy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

danenania's point remains valid if the Israel part is omitted. I grew up under a military dictatorship endorsed by the US and I can tell you there are still lots of people very resentful of that support. Reducing foreign intervention is the cheapest way to demotivate potential terrorists. Unfortunately, doing so now would risk making them believe they won something.

That would only demotivate terrorists against us. They still have plenty of other targets. I don't see how isolationism for the states will actually make the world better. We tried it before, it didn't work.

> They still have plenty of other targets.

As long as they are internal affairs, it's their problem. If the problems cross borders, there are international organizations with proper authority do deal with them.

When one country decides to make a military intervention, the international bodies are further weakened.

Re: Chomsky: spying does not protect you

#60

Post by seanmcdirmid »

rbanffy wrote: post #59
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would only demotivate terrorists against us. They still have plenty of other targets. I don't see how isolationism for the states will actually make the world better. We tried it before, it didn't work.

> They still have plenty of other targets. As long as they are internal affairs, it's their problem. If the problems cross borders, there are international organizations with proper authority do deal with them. When one country decides to make a military intervention, the international bodies are further weakened.

What international police force with proper authority are you talking about? NATO? The UN? I think most of the world is actually against a world-wide police force with any real authority.
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