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Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

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Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#151

Post by [deleted] »

Sven7 wrote: post #45
mtgx wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I could understand why the vast majority of the government is in favor of this, or why the mainstream media is with the government, too, however disappointing that may be, what is most saddening is that there are a lot of people out there who agree with them, too, maybe not the majority but even 40% would be a very scary number. Even in the most ruthless dictatorships there were a lot of normal people who suppo…

And how do you plan to stop the next terror attack?

[deleted]

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#152

Post by kinghajj »

powertower wrote: post #141
kinghajj wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm referring to all of his leaks so far. > Because that's what the NSA and CIA do, and all the other countries take part in. It's part of the game nations play. Yeah, and so? That doesn't make those actions right, nor Snowden's actions wrong. > Even Google is claiming the media is downright lying about what is going on. It's he-said they-said right now, but Snowden has documents that allegedly corroborate his story,…

> Yeah, and so? That doesn't make those actions right, nor Snowden's actions wrong. It makes those actions necessary, and his actions absolutely wrong. > It's he-said they-said right now, but Snowden has documents that allegedly corroborate his story, while all we get from the ISPs, telecos, and the government are simple denials. What we got was clarifications and specifics to the media's sensationalism and falsehood…

> It makes those actions necessary, and his actions absolutely wrong.

Why do nations and states get special status in the geopolitical game? (Because it's a way to ensure that each maintains its own power, and not let those dumb plebs fuck up their designs.)

> But you've already made up your mind...

You're assuming that I believe all the claims he's made, when I've said nothing of the sort in this entire thread. Indeed, it rather seems that you are the one who has made up their mind that the clarifications made must be genuine, just as you have accused me of assuming that all of Snowden's allegations are geniune... Doesn't feel good, huh?

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#154

Post by ewoodrich »

graycat wrote: post #131

I suggest that, on the question prominent in this thread, "what should the US do about terrorism and the claimed excesses of the NSA", there is now an answer that is unavoidable, rock solid, quite clear, maybe crystal clear, even if it does not address all concerns. Here in logical steps is the unavoidable answer: (1) Due to whatever in history before 1776, the US founding fathers gave us the Constitution. Soon they…

"The founding fathers made sure that the Supreme Court was not just a bunch of kids playing tag on a playground."

The founders actually chose to be extremely vague as to the exact role and powers of the court and for the first several decades of the US, SCOTUS was irrelevant and weak. The Court led by Chief Justice John Marshall, solidified its role as the third check on federal power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marbury_v._Madison

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#155

Post by mpyne »

ObviousPoints wrote: post #93
Sven7 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why the surveillance state will exist. Cause the answers are non-obvious. What I find most annoying about the comments on hacker news over the last couple weeks, is the amount of people crying about the problems or potential problems and hardly anyone talking solutions. The lack of solutions itself is a sign that no one has anything better to offer than what the NSA is currently upto.

> The lack of solutions itself is a sign that no one has anything better to offer than what the NSA is currently upto. Not doing what the NSA is currently up to, and letting a 9/11 happen every year, would be better than what we're currently doing. "Preventing all terrorism" is both impossible and wildly impractical: to even get close, you must eviscerate the freedoms in your society and undermine the rule of law. Th…

> "Preventing all terrorism" is both impossible and wildly impractical: to even get close, you must eviscerate the freedoms in your society and undermine the rule of law.

Preventing all terrorism isn't actually the goal though.

Just like our vaccination regimes are not intended to completely eradicate disease, merely prevent epidemics and pandemics, the anti-terrorism programs are intended to increase safety and security for Americans (and by proxy, other nations who would also be targets of the groups aligned against the USA), in a way such that terrorism does not happen so often that the people demand the police state we all claim here to despise.

It is recognized that completely eradicating terrorism is probably impossible, but the U.S. can make it almost impossibly difficult to form large enough terror cells to repeat things like 9/11.

And unlike your rather defeatist attitude, I think that can be done without "eviscerating" civil liberties, as long as we employ ample doses of transparency, watchdog groups, and organizational structures designed to keep those programs directed to the mission and provide accountability and oversight. Of course it can be done; how do banks holding billions of dollars of their customers funds manage to provide strict accountability for those?

Pretty much every prior technological breakthrough has made tyranny in the U.S. more likely, and the U.S. has managed to pull through in each case (though sometimes with roadbumps...).

And, if you're really concerned about the rule of law you will do everything possible to avoid "a 9/11 every year". When the state fails to protect the people, the people (armed by the 2nd Amendment) will take matters into their own hands, and it won't be pretty for many innocents in America.

But again, if you have better ideas I'm sure the NSA is listening...

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#156

Post by mpyne »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #116
twoodfin wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is this obsession with body counts? To bang again on my favorite drum, many, may more Americans were dying of polio or coal mining accidents in 1941 than German or Japanese bombs. That doesn't mean it was stupid to enter World War II. Obviously those who have chosen to deliberately kill civilians in spectacular ways are not right now a danger akin to imperial Japan or Nazi Germany. But will it really take a dirt…

>Obviously those who have chosen to deliberately kill civilians in spectacular ways are not right now a danger akin to imperial Japan or Nazi Germany. Obviously. Which is the point. >But will it really take a dirty bomb, a successful mass infection/poisoning, or god help us a nuke to stop this silly argument? These are movie theater plots. "Mass poisonings" are a very poor attack vector because as soon as they're ide…

> I don't think anybody is arguing that there should be no response to a terrorist act. But why can't the response be to bring the terrorists to justice as international criminals, and not to let it change the fabric of our society?

Why not both? I've yet to be convinced that warrant-based searches of Internet traffic by a resource-constrained agency would actually appreciably change the fabric of society. Especially if we force better transparency and accountability controls on what is now present.

But also, while we're itemizing potential terrorist activities, am I the only one who is worried about MANPADs?

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#157

Post by mpyne »

fnordfnordfnord wrote: post #113
Sven7 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like saying lets have a lottery every year that picks 3000 people and send them over to the middle east. My point is people have to be pushed to answer the question on how to tackle terrorism to take this debate in a constructive direction. Ofcourse governments will do dumb things but the terrorism problem is a hard one.

>My point is people have to be pushed to answer the question on how to tackle terrorism It barely deserves a response. Practically nobody dies of terrorism. >to take this debate in a constructive direction. To derail the debate with FUD?

"Practically nobody" has been caught up in NSA shenanigans either. What people are worried about is the possibility of this destroying our Republic, but we've actually watched the planes fly into the Twin Towers. So one of these concerns is more concrete, if that's all you're worried about.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#158

Post by robomartin »

graycat wrote: post #131

I suggest that, on the question prominent in this thread, "what should the US do about terrorism and the claimed excesses of the NSA", there is now an answer that is unavoidable, rock solid, quite clear, maybe crystal clear, even if it does not address all concerns. Here in logical steps is the unavoidable answer: (1) Due to whatever in history before 1776, the US founding fathers gave us the Constitution. Soon they…

I am sure you meant well but I found your write-up somewhat scattered and lacking a logical conclusion supported by prior points. This is easy to do if one is writing with passion. I've done it too.

If your point is that we will ultimately be protected by the Supreme Court, I think you are wrong. This is the same Supreme Court that enabled Obamacare, a law that allows the Federal Government to force every american to buy something. And, if you don't or don't pay a penalty the IRS will come after you. Beyond that, this is a law virtually nobody read and, per Nancy Pelosi we had to "pass it to find out what's in it". I can't remember a greater perversion of authority in my adult life.

I am sure there are other examples but IANAL.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#159

Post by mpyne »

brugidou wrote: post #127
Sven7 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why the surveillance state will exist. Cause the answers are non-obvious. What I find most annoying about the comments on hacker news over the last couple weeks, is the amount of people crying about the problems or potential problems and hardly anyone talking solutions. The lack of solutions itself is a sign that no one has anything better to offer than what the NSA is currently upto.

What about spending the anti-terror money to make the US "look good" to the people that could be terrorists? That would lower the probability of terrorist attacks. I know this sounds cheesy but I think repression is just making things worse.

The U.S. has done that before (and is doing it now; witness Egypt and Pakistan). It normally has come back to bite us in the ass though.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#160

Post by dllthomas »

Sven7 wrote: post #58
mpyne wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The normal recommendation is "good old-fashioned police work", as if strong police states are known to be beacons of freedom. Some simply recommend to just suck it up as the price of doing business, but that goes against everything America has typically done with regard to terrorism, all the way back to the Barbary Pirates: "Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute!"

That's why the surveillance state will exist. Cause the answers are non-obvious. What I find most annoying about the comments on hacker news over the last couple weeks, is the amount of people crying about the problems or potential problems and hardly anyone talking solutions. The lack of solutions itself is a sign that no one has anything better to offer than what the NSA is currently upto.

Simple proposal that I think everyone would agree is preferable to what the NSA is currently up to:

What the NSA is doing, but properly implementing mandatory access control (like what they added to Linux over a decade ago with SELinux) to ensure that admins do not have more access than they should.

That said, I'm not eager to let them define the Overton window and just settle for that - I'm leaning a little further on the "radical transparency" side of the spectrum - but clearly, what the NSA is up to is not treating our data with the care it merits.

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