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Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

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Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#31

Post by fnordfnordfnord »

codex wrote: post #9
betterunix wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"SWAT teams traditionally have been there to diffuse potentially violent confrontations" Your news is about 30 years out of date. Since the late 80s, there has been a massive increase in the use of paramilitary police teams to serve basic search-and-arrest warrants. SWAT was used against hackers in the 90s, it is routinely used to prosecute drug cases (perhaps most famously), and of course against protesters. What ha…

Incidents like this one don't help, where bank robbers wore full suits of body armor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout ... probably because they expected SWAT. It's a bit of an arms race, literally, between the cops and the robbers.

>Incidents

You mean there is another one? There is no justification for the widespread militarization of police in this country.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#32

Post by mtgx »

mpyne wrote: post #24
natermer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about at least owning up to the shit we do that is bad?

By all means, let's do that.

It would help if they wouldn't keep the guy leaking that sort of info in prison for 3 years without a charge, like he was some kind of terrorist.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#33

Post by crististm »

hga wrote: post #27
crististm wrote: post #23

That raises the question: who is US after all? Is it the officials or is it the people?

If there isn't a significant change in the country's direction within the next few years, say, perhaps by the end of the decade or a little after, we'll know the answer is cemented as the former.

What I see now as US is a very different place from the one I imagined only 20 years ago. In this very short time span it went from THE place to go to in terms of Freedom to "are you nuts? - it's communist Russia in disguise".

I've heard there are "no-fly" secret lists which you can't challenge because, you know, they are secret. That can't be true, right? grin

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#34

Post by hga »

alan_cx wrote: post #13
shaunrussell wrote: post #11

one must ask, why does the US have enemies?

More over, why so many perceived enemies who are US citizens? Why is the US government treating its own citizens as enemies of the state? As a non American, I take a perverse sort of comfort from that idea that it looks like the US government is as scared of its own people as it is foreigners. At least we foreigners and American citizens are in it together. Truth is, we are enemies of US government behavior, not the…

We've got an entrenched ruling class that's very distinct from the bulk of the county, who are remarkably inept, and who's interests are very much not those of the rest of the country's. This includes the Republican Party establishment, GOPe as some are starting to label it.

For more details, this article is the best initial exposition I've found, "America’s Ruling Class — And the Perils of Revolution", "The only serious opposition to this arrogant Ruling Party is coming not from feckless Republicans but from what might be called the Country Party — and its vision is revolutionary.": http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-cla...

See also the expanded monograph: http://www.amazon.com/The-Ruling-Class-ebook/dp/B0040JHNZW

And the "revolutionary" bit, of an American nature, not at all in the violent French tradition, explains why the TEA Party et. al. has to be suppressed at all costs, and why the GOPe wasn't and still isn't interested in stopping it per se (e.g. the IRS has not changed its policies). We are existential threats to the GOPe, as e.g. Republican ex-Senator Richard Lugar knows as he's now spending more time with his family.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#35

Post by hga »

crististm wrote: post #33
hga wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there isn't a significant change in the country's direction within the next few years, say, perhaps by the end of the decade or a little after, we'll know the answer is cemented as the former.

What I see now as US is a very different place from the one I imagined only 20 years ago. In this very short time span it went from THE place to go to in terms of Freedom to "are you nuts? - it's communist Russia in disguise". I've heard there are "no-fly" secret lists which you can't challenge because, you know, they are secret. That can't be true, right? grin

You can challenge them, e.g. ask the TSA or whomever to reconsider, but you won't be told why your name was put on it ... which is not at all insane if you think about it. The existence of the list(s), and their many false positives, e.g. the late Senator Teddy Kennedy, is no secret at all, just their contents and methods.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#36

Post by fixxer »

crististm wrote: post #33
hga wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there isn't a significant change in the country's direction within the next few years, say, perhaps by the end of the decade or a little after, we'll know the answer is cemented as the former.

What I see now as US is a very different place from the one I imagined only 20 years ago. In this very short time span it went from THE place to go to in terms of Freedom to "are you nuts? - it's communist Russia in disguise". I've heard there are "no-fly" secret lists which you can't challenge because, you know, they are secret. That can't be true, right? grin

They are just trying to keep us safe. ;)

Personally, I'd rather be vulnerable to a few nuts than vulnerable to the system.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#37

Post by mtgx »

venomsnake wrote: post #28

This was common in Eastern Europe and USSR during the purges - they were "Enemies with a Party Ticket". It is disturbing how easily this rhetoric comes.

While I could understand why the vast majority of the government is in favor of this, or why the mainstream media is with the government, too, however disappointing that may be, what is most saddening is that there are a lot of people out there who agree with them, too, maybe not the majority but even 40% would be a very scary number.

Even in the most ruthless dictatorships there were a lot of normal people who supported their leaders, the surveillance and police states. That's the scariest part about this. If so many people believe in such ideas, it can take several decades to turn away from that, just like if you would live in a "communist" or "muslim" state, you'd know you're probably not going to see a true democracy in your country in your lifetime, even if there's a revolution.

If US becomes a surveillance state and abuses are common, and people just learn to "live with that", instead of protesting [1] before it's too late, it's going to be very hard to fix that later on, and it's going to have to become a lot worse for every single person, before things even begin to change, and that will take many years.

[1] - http://www.restorethefourth.net/

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#39

Post by hga »

philliphaydon wrote: post #12

I wonder if we will see a non-corrupt America within our lifetime.

That's way too binary of a wish, there hasn't been a "non-corrupt" America pretty much ever. I mean, go back and look at the Hamilton-Burr feud, or the etymology of gerrymander: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering#Etymology. The guy signed the Deceleration of Independence....

It's more a matter of degree, and pervasiveness. By many measures we're still a largely uncorrupt nation, but I find it difficult to believe that if what's happening at the top isn't stopped that it won't filter down a whole lot. Although e.g. the Japanese are an example of a largely uncorrupt people with eternally "corrupt" rulers, going back many centuries.

Re: Obama’s crackdown views leaks as aiding enemies of U.S.

#40

Post by crististm »

hga wrote: post #35
crististm wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I see now as US is a very different place from the one I imagined only 20 years ago. In this very short time span it went from THE place to go to in terms of Freedom to "are you nuts? - it's communist Russia in disguise". I've heard there are "no-fly" secret lists which you can't challenge because, you know, they are secret. That can't be true, right? grin

You can challenge them, e.g. ask the TSA or whomever to reconsider, but you won't be told why your name was put on it ... which is not at all insane if you think about it. The existence of the list(s), and their many false positives, e.g. the late Senator Teddy Kennedy, is no secret at all, just their contents and methods.

You see the problem here? These are tactics of a police state. In a free world there is no secret police doing secret stuff that I have to jump through hoops to challenge.

The moment people get used to this shit - they have won.

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