How to know when someone is in trouble in the water • Hacker News Board

Re: How to know when someone is in trouble in the water

#111

Post by Filligree » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 2:20 PM UTC

venus wrote: post #104

jholman wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, though it's not even about forcing them to be aware of it. Like you quoted from the article, "cannot voluntarily control their arm movements" . So the question is, what's the Override Software doing with their arms? It's climbing a ladder, it's scrambling up a vine, it's hauling the body onto a boulder. If there's no ladder/vine/boulder, it's a shitty strategy, and they'll drown pretty soon. If there's a rescue…

As a reasonably strong swimmer with no life saving experience - giving or receiving - this conversation is pretty fascinating, especially the casual nature experienced rescuers are saying things such as > they're not people right now This strikes me as an incredibly interesting concept. I wonder what other situations arise semi-frequently where participants temporarily abandon their people-ness? Has this notion been…

In the moral sense? No, clearly you have not committed murder.

In the legal sense? Um. That would get interesting. I imagine that if the court knows what happened, the answer would be 'no', but if no-one there knows this kind of thing might happen (including you) you might have a problem.

Re: How to know when someone is in trouble in the water

#112

Post by Filligree » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 2:23 PM UTC

qrybam wrote: post #87

kaoD wrote: post #18

I can confirm the article. Almost drowned once in a river: I let myself go with the current and, once I tried swimming back, realized I accidentally went into strong currents. I tried swimming harder, but eventually got tired and sunk. Despite my friends being about 20/30 meters away from me, they didn't realize I was drowning. I couldn't scream for help nor do anything but trying to stick my head out and breathe. I…

Ditto. I remember my drowning in a swimming pool very vividly. I was around 9 at the time, couldn't swim and was sitting on one of those foam floats. A friend of mine (he didn't know about my lack of swimming ability) pushed me off the float right in the middle of the deep end. This is where the article's description really hits home with me: 1. I wasn't able to stay afloat in my vertical position (as described) 2. I…

Doesn't sound like the drowning reflex kicked in for you, there.

Re: How to know when someone is in trouble in the water

#113

Post by Filligree » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 2:30 PM UTC

ivank wrote: post #52

Filligree wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is often the case. Reading pure-black on pure-white hurts my eyes, so I often have to tune this knob the other way. The actual problem is the lack of a brightness-controlled colorspace.

If it hurts your eyes, why not turn down the brightness and/or set up f.lux or redshift?

I use f.lux, and it's great, but it doesn't affect brightness.

I don't want to turn down the brightness because then I've turned down the maximum brightness. My brightness tolerance runs on a curve - at one end, there's the brightness I'm okay with for the page as a whole; on the other end, there's the brightness that's okay for a single pixel, and they're nowhere near each other.

Logically, then, you should never use #FFF for large areas.

Re: How to know when someone is in trouble in the water

#114

Post by qrybam » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 3:17 PM UTC

parfe wrote: post #4

swinnipeg wrote: post #2

The absence of screaming and waving seems obvious after reading it, I realize I am really am conditioned to think if people aren't screaming...etc they aren't in trouble. That said there is definitely some lifeguard propaganda in the article (who knew such a thing existed?): "From beginning to end of the Instinctive Drowning Response people’s bodies remain upright in the water, with no evidence of a supporting kick.…

A drowning person will endanger his rescuer by instinctively climbing onto the highest point available (the rescuer's head). If you see someone drowning, alert a lifeguard if possible. Depending on the situation, the proper action might require the rescuer to counter intuitively drag the person under water. On the other hand, if no life guard is present, don't just let someone drown, but saving them is a risk. source…

Agreed - saw this happen on a boat. People were diving from the boat into the sea. One fairly large guy who couldn't swim decided it looked like fun and followed suit.

At first no one realised how bad the situation was, with the next person jumping soon after. Within 20-30 seconds someone asked "hey, is he drowning?" and 4 guys (not trained as lifeguards) swam over and struggled to keep him afloat, even with a dozen foam float "sticks", he almost took them all down with him. He was quiet, there wasn't much splashing, he was trying to keep afloat with his arms and wasn't kicking with his legs at all.

It was scary and in retrospect hilarious; the guy has since gained a legendary status in the office although it could have turned out very differently - possible nomination for a Darwin award.

Re: How to know when someone is in trouble in the water

#115

Post by jholman » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 8:18 PM UTC

venus wrote: post #104

jholman wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, though it's not even about forcing them to be aware of it. Like you quoted from the article, "cannot voluntarily control their arm movements" . So the question is, what's the Override Software doing with their arms? It's climbing a ladder, it's scrambling up a vine, it's hauling the body onto a boulder. If there's no ladder/vine/boulder, it's a shitty strategy, and they'll drown pretty soon. If there's a rescue…

As a reasonably strong swimmer with no life saving experience - giving or receiving - this conversation is pretty fascinating, especially the casual nature experienced rescuers are saying things such as > they're not people right now This strikes me as an incredibly interesting concept. I wonder what other situations arise semi-frequently where participants temporarily abandon their people-ness? Has this notion been…

While I have lots of training as a rescuer (which motivated my previous comment), I actually have zero working experience.

Life-saving training is interesting and cheap (I believe it's subsidized by non-profits)! I recommend it! The Red Cross is one good organization. And note that they offer training specifically for pool owners (though I'm guessing you don't own the pool, merely rent in the same building or something).

Re: How to know when someone is in trouble in the water

#116

Post by atulagarwal » Sat, Jun 22, 2013, 9:09 PM UTC

Well, I had almost drowned once. I had a personal flotation device and I knew swimming! We were out rafting, and I had swayed away from the raft swimming in light rapids (the instructor said its very safe - which it wasn't). When I realized that the rapids were overwhelming me, I tried to stay afloat (a flotation device and know-how of floating works - but I guess I was panicked!), but did not help too much. It took me sometime to realize I was drowning, and in the meantime I had told another raft that had approached to help - that I was fine (overconfidence?). When the reality hit, it was bad, and I could not even scream. I did wave my hands, on to which my friends on the raft threw a rope, and I survived.

Even swimmers (I consider myself below average) can drown. "Panic" is to blame here. The following article explains a similar case quite here (search for "scuba-diving"):

http://www.gladwell.com/2000/2000_08_21_a_choking.html

Re: How to know when someone is in trouble in the water

#117

Post by dredmorbius » Sun, Jun 23, 2013, 1:53 PM UTC

noja wrote: post #59

mikeryan wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Approach a drowning person from behind and hold them above the water by their armpits Unless you're a trained lifeguard this is poor advice. As stated above you don't want to get within touching/grabbing distance of a drowning person. Get some sort of intermediary between you and them, a stick, rope, shirt, pants whatever. Something that you can drop if you are at risk. To the point below about their instincts of not…

Your best bet is to knock them unconscious, them pull them safely to shore. It's safer for both of you. Edit: actually perhaps not the best idea.

Knocking them out isn't a great idea, but (many years ago) in lifeguard training I was taught that waiting for the victim to go unconscious, if you couldn't safely deal with them, was preferable to having two drowning victims.

First rule of rescue: your own safety first. Not only does that minimise the casualties, but if you're injured or dead you can't help others anyway

Re: How to know when someone is in trouble in the water

#118

Post by dkuntz2 » Sun, Jun 23, 2013, 8:17 PM UTC

EvanKelly wrote: post #80

gmrple wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most lifeguards that I know are trained not to jump in after a drowning victim EVER unless they have a strong floatation device--the lifeguard tube. Supposedly most of the larger ones should be able to support 5 people. Drowning victims are so dangerous that even people who are trained can run into issues.

We do active drowning victim training in which we lose our floatation device. Part of our training includes freeing ourselves from the victim. I've personally never had a victim panic when I got close to the point of endangering me. We're basically taught to poke them with the tube until they grab on. You're right though, the safety of the rescuer always comes first.

I had something like that, too.

The worst part was we were supposed to look the other way and have them come up behind us and tackle us in the water. The worst part was having a 300 lbs old guy doing who isn't a fan of making it easy.

Re: How to know when someone is in trouble in the water

#119

Post by ivank » Tue, Jun 25, 2013, 9:40 AM UTC

Filligree wrote: post #113

ivank wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it hurts your eyes, why not turn down the brightness and/or set up f.lux or redshift?

I use f.lux, and it's great, but it doesn't affect brightness. I don't want to turn down the brightness because then I've turned down the maximum brightness . My brightness tolerance runs on a curve - at one end, there's the brightness I'm okay with for the page as a whole; on the other end, there's the brightness that's okay for a single pixel, and they're nowhere near each other. Logically, then, you should never u…

That's a good point, I guess I just gave up on that battle long ago.

(Well, not entirely. Games don't get my redshift color+brightness adjustments, and I used to be able to play video without the adjustments as well.)