Live data from Hacker News

NSA: Please Stop Mailing Us FOIA Requests

mynsarecords.com

51–60 of 60 posts

Re: NSA: Please Stop Mailing Us FOIA Requests

#51
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not me that failed to include a full address. It is the people who submitted their information and failed to fill out the form properly. The form is dead simple, but no matter what, there will always be a small % of people who do not follow instructions. Furthermore, the NSA does not get to make "rules" about the form of FOIA requests. If they have enough information to reply, by law, they must reply.

No you were not the person that failed to include a complete address. But you were the one that assumed there would be no problem with submitting incomplete addresses. Did you read 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(3)(A): (3) (A) Except with respect to the records made available under paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection, and except as provided in subparagraph (E), each agency, upon any request for records which (i) reasonably…

I'm not "assuming" anything. I simply print and mail documents. I actually can't do more to review the forms, because it would be crossing the line into giving legal advice. If the form looked like it was filled out, I mailed it.

Re: NSA: Please Stop Mailing Us FOIA Requests

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We include the phone number for them so they can look it up :)

Still don't see the point. You're not going to find anything like phone transcripts or what tags might be applied to your person. I'm guessing 99% of the requests will be sent back with "we don't have a folder specifically for you". Because there isn't one...specifically. We're probably all in their database as some random character string, only actually linked to our identity if needed. Unless they have an actual in…

In order for a record to be releasable under FOIA, it need not be in a file attached to your name. If I ask the NSA for every document that has the word "purple" in it, they are required to provide that document or claim a valid statutory exemption. Likewise, if I ask them for any record that contains 8005551212, they are required to provide it regardless of the labeling on its container.

Re: NSA: Please Stop Mailing Us FOIA Requests

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, people who submitted obviously invalid addresses were contacted by e-mail and allowed to re-submit. Pretty stupid, right? ;)

It just explains the part of the NSA's letter to you where you pretended like they lied or were being misleading. Turns out, you were being misleading, not them.

What are you smoking? Go back through my comments and point to one where I suggested that the NSA's e-mail to me was a lie. At most, I suggested it was an exaggeration since they said "many" of the requests had invalid addresses, while I contend that it was less than 5%.

Re: NSA: Please Stop Mailing Us FOIA Requests

#54
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you were not the person that failed to include a complete address. But you were the one that assumed there would be no problem with submitting incomplete addresses. Did you read 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(3)(A): (3) (A) Except with respect to the records made available under paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection, and except as provided in subparagraph (E), each agency, upon any request for records which (i) reasonably…

I'm not "assuming" anything. I simply print and mail documents. I actually can't do more to review the forms, because it would be crossing the line into giving legal advice. If the form looked like it was filled out, I mailed it.

I'm sorry but rejecting form submissions that are imcomplete is not "giving legal advice."

Don't forget; I am still interested in hearing what behavior would constitute recognition that this is a "protest"?

Re: NSA: Please Stop Mailing Us FOIA Requests

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still don't see the point. You're not going to find anything like phone transcripts or what tags might be applied to your person. I'm guessing 99% of the requests will be sent back with "we don't have a folder specifically for you". Because there isn't one...specifically. We're probably all in their database as some random character string, only actually linked to our identity if needed. Unless they have an actual in…

In order for a record to be releasable under FOIA, it need not be in a file attached to your name. If I ask the NSA for every document that has the word "purple" in it, they are required to provide that document or claim a valid statutory exemption. Likewise, if I ask them for any record that contains 8005551212, they are required to provide it regardless of the labeling on its container.

It is now clear that you have not done any research about what constitutes a valid FOIA request. If you would like to do some research the DOJ Procedures guide that I have previously recommended is extremely detailed and thorough. I was serious when I said you might enjoy reading it if you are interested in FOIA. Please note, I have only included footnotes 107 and 108 because they seem to be the most relevant to this comment.

  Courts have recognized that the legislative history of the 1974 FOIA
  amendments indicates that a description of a requested record is
  sufficient if it enables a professional agency employee familiar with
  the subject area to locate the record with a "reasonable amount of
  effort."[105] Courts have also found that requests that are so broad and
  sweeping that they lack specificity are not reasonably described.[106]

  Courts have explained that "[t]he rationale for this rule is that
  FOIA was not intended to reduce government agencies to full-time
  investigators on behalf of requesters,"[107] or to allow requesters
  to conduct "fishing expeditions" through agencyfiles.108 Courts have
  recognized that an agency's FOIA staff is neither required to have
  "clairvoyant capabilities" to discern the requester's needs,[109] nor
  must they spend "countless numbers of personnel hours seeking needles in
  bureaucratic haystacks."[110]
  
  [107] Assassination Archives & Research Ctr. v. CIA, 720 F. Supp. 217,
  219 (D.D.C. 1989), aff'd in pertinent part, No. 89-5414, 1990 WL
  123924 (D.C. Cir. Aug. 13, 1990) (per curiam); accord Nurse v. Sec'y
  of the Air Force, 231 F. Supp. 2d 323, 329 (D.D.C. 2002) (quoting
  Assassination Archives & Research Ctr., 720 F. Supp. at 219); see,
  e.g., Bloeser v. DOJ, 811 F. Supp. 2d 316, 321 (D.D.C. 2011) (reasoning
  that "[b]ecause 'FOIA' was not intended to reduce government agencies
  to full-time investigators on behalf of requesters, . . . [t]o the
  extent that plaintiff can identify documents which he believes exist in
  a particular office within [DOJ], such identifying information should
  have been included as part of his original FOIA request"); Satterlee
  v. IRS, No. 05-3181, 2006 WL 3160963, at *3 (W.D. Mo. Oct. 30, 2006)
  (finding that request was improper where it would require agency to
  "conduct legal research" and answer questions "disguised as . . . FOIA
  request"); Frank v. DOJ, 941 F. Supp. 4, 5 (D.D.C. 1996) (stating that
  agency is not required to "dig out all the information that might
  exist, in whatever form or place it might be found, and to create
  a document that answers plaintiff's questions"); Lamb v. IRS, 871
  F. Supp. 301, 304 (E.D. Mich. 1994) (finding requests outside scope of
  FOIA when they require legal research, are unspecific, or seek answers
  to interrogatories); Trenerry v. Dep't of the Treasury, No. 92-5053,
  1993 WL 26813, at *3 (10th Cir. Feb. 5, 1993) (holding that agency not
  required to provide personal services such as legal research).
  
  
  [108] Immanuel v. Sec'y of the Treasury, No. 94-884, 1995 WL 464141,
  at *1 (D. Md. Apr. 4, 1995), aff'd, 81 F.3d 150 (4th Cir. 1996)
  (unpublished table decision); see also Dale v. IRS, 238 F. Supp. 2d 99,
  104-05 (D.D.C. 2002) (concluding that request seeking "'any and all
  documents . . . that refer or relate in any way'" to requester failed to
  reasonably describe records sought and "amounted to an all-encompassing
  fishing expedition of files at [agency's] offices across the country, at
  taxpayer expense").

Re: NSA: Please Stop Mailing Us FOIA Requests

#57
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you were not the person that failed to include a complete address. But you were the one that assumed there would be no problem with submitting incomplete addresses. Did you read 5 U.S.C. § 552(a)(3)(A): (3) (A) Except with respect to the records made available under paragraphs (1) and (2) of this subsection, and except as provided in subparagraph (E), each agency, upon any request for records which (i) reasonably…

I'm not "assuming" anything. I simply print and mail documents. I actually can't do more to review the forms, because it would be crossing the line into giving legal advice. If the form looked like it was filled out, I mailed it.

Actually... you can do more. You have a web form. Process the results with some error checking. I'm pretty sure Google (maybe someone else) has an API that lets you pass them an address and they will validate it. So you could pretty easily throw an error for forms that do not have a complete address. That is not legal advice... that is "Form Processing 101".

Having said that, I think it is rather comical you are using old school snail mail to request the NSA to provide people with their digital records. Plus I'm sure the paper form is a bit more work for someone to process. I like it. I'm all about using inconvenience as a middle finger.

Re: NSA: Please Stop Mailing Us FOIA Requests

#58
post #55
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is doing nothing better?

Respectfully, what is this accomplishing?

It makes it more expensive to run this Stasi-like surveillance program.

You can use your argument to anything. E.g. what is your previous comment accomplishing?

Re: NSA: Please Stop Mailing Us FOIA Requests

#59
post #32

What's the actual protest? That the paper FOIA requests don't include the required information to honor said request, allowing the NSA to throw out the requests entirely without having to spend time fulfilling them? Sounds more like the ~~company~~ guy is trying to cover for ~~its~~ his fuckup filling out the forms. It's a much more effective protest to actually make the NSA follow through with the requests. Edit: Al…

> This man is an idiot, please don't fill up HN with this drivel. This personal insult is uncalled for. It's easy to sit around and complain about what the government is doing, but this man has actually gone out and done something - setting up infrastructure to make it easier for the average person to submit these requests, he is spreading the word, etc. He has also done great work protesting the TSA.

> It's easy to sit around and complain about what the government is doing, but this man has actually gone out and done something - setting up infrastructure to make it easier for the average person to submit these requests

His infrastructure does not make it easier to submit these requests. It is harder to submit them with his stuff than to use the NSA's own form:

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/foia/submit_foia_request/foia...

Re: NSA: Please Stop Mailing Us FOIA Requests

#60
post #58
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, what is this accomplishing?

It makes it more expensive to run this Stasi-like surveillance program. You can use your argument to anything. E.g. what is your previous comment accomplishing?

My previous comment was describing my best guess to what information is run up the flagpole and to what end. These people think that PRISM stops terrorists you think a couple extra hundred dollars is going to convince them its not worth the effort.

I do not mean to be critical of the poster, any involvement is better than none. However I do not think the best path forward is acting as if something is being done when it is not is not.

I think that someone who can build a website like this could make a much more useful one. Instead of preaching to the choir preach to the unconverted (Elected Officials, Mom, Dad, Grocery Clerk). Let people submit address/zip and then return a phone script and the name/numbers of your senators and your representative. Or populate a pdf file with all the information so that someone can put it in an envelope, copy the address given and add a stamp

Post reply on HN